- Page 2

by Pado Sat Feb 04 2012, 01:47

First topic message reminder :

.

by jamesboro Thu Feb 09 2012, 10:25

The direct line of the Staffy goes back to the Bull and Terrier. In fact it wasn't until the white Bull Terrier (EBT) came along that the name change gradually creeped in. The EBT had been developed primarily as a show dog. James Hinks took the Bull and Terrier and added English White Terrier and Dalmation to give it a more refined look and a more even temperament. At the time (1860's) the old type Bull and Terrier was still bred for fighting and was only owned by the working classes, particularly in and around Staffordshire. It took years to get the Staffy recognised by the KC and it was a fella called Joe Dunn who eventually drew up a breed standard (with the name Staffordshire Bull Terrier) and had it accepted by the KC. When drawing up the breed standard he visited numerous Bull and Terrier breeders in Staffordshire to get a full picture of how the ideal Bull and Terrier (Staffy) should look. You could say the Pit Bull and Bull Terrier are offshoots of the original Bull and Terrier (aka the Staffordshire Bull Terrier).

by **Steve** Thu Feb 09 2012, 11:32

I was always been told this how it was, the bull & terrier was imported to the US and cross bred with other terriers to make the yanke terrier which become the american pitbull terier

- Page 2 Breedy10

by jamesboro Thu Feb 09 2012, 15:01

I'd be more inclined to say that the Staffy is the direct descendant of the Bull and Terrier. Certainly the Bull Terrier had a lot more Terrier blood as well as Dalmatian blood introduced. The history of the Pit Bull is less well known with several theories including the ones above about Mastiff blood being introduced and more Terrier blood. In reality i'd imagine new blood was introduced to the Pit Bull, partly to make it a taller and a more all round farm/guard dog and partly due to the lack of suitable mates in the new world. It seems the aim of the breeders in America though was to breed a dog that looked like the Bull and Terrier of England. The Bull and Terrier in England however continued to be bred 'Bull and Terrier' to 'Bull and Terrier' with no new blood introduced even when it became known as the Staffordshire Bull Terrier.

by **Steve** Thu Feb 09 2012, 15:09

but wasn't bull & terrier the size of the american pitbull so there most of been a line or group of breeders who had a smaller breed that became the staffordshire bull terrier?

by **shakespearesdog** Thu Feb 09 2012, 15:14

I always read that the apt has more blue paul terrier blood in it and thats the main difference.

by **Steve** Thu Feb 09 2012, 15:18

it's like american bullie today

the classic americna bullie
- Page 2 Classic1-222x300

from that there now is

A standard one
- Page 2 Standard

A Pocket one
- Page 2 Abkc_pocket-222x300

A Extra Large one
- Page 2 Abkc_xl-222x300

A Extreme one
- Page 2 Extreme

by jamesboro Thu Feb 09 2012, 15:24

As i understand it the Bull and Terrier was selectively bred down in size to meet the new breed standard and to make it a more manageable size for a house dog/family pet. It wasn't really until the 1930's that dog fighting was really clamped down on by the police and until then the Bull and Terrier (Staffy) was bred along the same lines it had been for over 100 years. Meanwhile the Pit Bull was seen more as a guard dog and bred up in size.

by **Steve** Thu Feb 09 2012, 15:35

like the ameircan bullie

there be an classic look of the bull and terrier and after so many years 4 lines went the own ways but they all are from bull and terrier.

by Pado Thu Feb 09 2012, 18:34

by **Steve** Thu Feb 09 2012, 18:56

i think there 2 type of staffordshire bull terriers show dog and the BYB staffy.

I heard many different stories about the history of the staffy, In the staffy community i think theres been alot of chinese whispers and the real story has been distorted.

by Pado Thu Feb 09 2012, 19:56

by **Steve** Thu Feb 09 2012, 20:00

what BYB staffys?

by Pado Thu Feb 09 2012, 20:04

by **Steve** Thu Feb 09 2012, 20:28

i got 3 staffy out of standard becasue i rushed in buying a dog before i did research... but after i been working on my website and forum for over 6 years i have learn a hell alot about the bully breeds.

by Guest Thu Feb 09 2012, 23:56

I disagree that there was no Historic Bull and Terrier the size of today's APBT. The Stafford was 15-18" in 1935. Sounds to me like the Bull and Terriers of those days were pretty close to Pit Bulls of today, which are generally 15/16-19/20" and 35-65lbs!

by Summerisle Fri Feb 10 2012, 07:00

I've read that many different theories about the evolution of these dogs I've stopped trying to find out.

by **Andy** Fri Feb 10 2012, 07:50

My research on the subject has always led me down the same road as Jamesboro's comments ... so not worth writing it again Tongues

While I love the standard staffy of today, I must admit part of me has the "pureist" veiw, that the 18-20" original type of size shouldnt have been bred out, keeping more of the original form (not a fan of altering things for showing purpose's) ... that said, it may be one of the very few things that has so far saved them from being thrown on the "DD Wagon" making them "look" destinctly differant to the APBT of today (well its pretty destinctive to me anyhow Laughing

) ... Max is around 18-19" at the withers, and gets a LOT of attention, and only once has anyone ever asked if he was "pure Staff" due to his size, build, and possibly colour, and that was a junkie looking scumbag who was lucky I didnt tread on Rolling Eyes

, most just want to make a fuss of him, and seem to know what he is straight away Big Grin

PS: I still think the pic at the start of this thread shows a staffy and an AmBully as I said in an earlier post dont tell anyone

by standupforstaffies123 Fri Feb 10 2012, 08:00

Images are beautiful! There are only small differneces but added together, they do look quite different!

by **Steve** Fri Feb 10 2012, 08:38

I would put my money on even the old standard didn't look like the bull & terrier ...... so this happen
- Page 2 Breedy10

by **Steve** Fri Feb 10 2012, 09:55

- Page 2 Images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT1l2x2PCuqIDMNrzFs37i6qhNO0RFcRfWt_FL22WuKTgHpyHBa4Te1eWX9Sw

one of the first staffie that became great ratting dogs

by **Steve** Fri Feb 10 2012, 10:17

bulll & terrier
- Page 2 Dustman

look nothing like a staffy

- Page 2 Gentleman%20jim

by standupforstaffies123 Fri Feb 10 2012, 22:23

Very interesting about the staffie becoming a famous ratter

by Guest Fri Feb 10 2012, 22:30

There were a few that could rat in the early days - they reckoned that 100 rats in 5 minutes was pretty good!

Billy & Jacko were famous ones - they were around in the middle of the 19th century. I think Billy killed 1000 rats in 100 minutes, or something like that.

by standupforstaffies123 Fri Feb 10 2012, 22:35

Wow Caryll! I love Staffies anyway but I think their history is really interesting too!

by **Steve** Fri Feb 10 2012, 22:37

someone told me this just hear say it may or may not be true but it's beleavable the first staffy was too small for the ring so the masters would have a fighter and staffy would play with the kids and kill the rats that was in and around the house.

by standupforstaffies123 Fri Feb 10 2012, 22:42

woah!!

by Guest Fri Feb 10 2012, 22:45

Wouldn't surprise me, they make good ratters - it's the terrier in them. Dempsey's a horror for trying to catch anything small & furry. He tried to eat my boss' mother-in-law's guinea pig!

by standupforstaffies123 Fri Feb 10 2012, 22:48

Lol, very true Caryll;)

by jamesboro Fri Feb 10 2012, 22:54

For me, through what i've read, there's no branching off in the lineage from Bull and Terrier to STB. There's absolutely no doubt that the Bull Terrier had a massive infusion of new blood. The Pit Bull on the other hand is less clear. On the one hand you could say that its a direct line from Bull and Terrier and that the settlers bred 'Bull and Terrier' to 'Bull and Terrier'. In my opinion its more likely that they had trouble finding a pure bred Bull and Terrier and so mated their dog with the best dog they could find. I think its rather unlikely that there's a direct line from Bull and Terrier to Pit Bull despite the similarities in appearance.

In Staffordshire on the other hand there was no shortage of Bull and Terriers and breeders could quite easily breed 'Bull and Terrier' to 'Bull and Terrier'. Of course over time the look of the Stafford has changed due to selective breeding (rather than an introduction of new blood) and breeders becoming obsessed with heads with the detriment to the rest of the body, particularly the hind quarters. I've seen no evidence in my research that from the Bull and Terrier to the STB there was any new blood introduced. The only changes came through selective breeding and of course the name change which only came about because James Hinks used the name Bull Terrier, otherwise the STB miay still be known as the Bull and Terrier today.

by **Steve** Fri Feb 10 2012, 23:03

it like the american bullie of today groups prefer different models of the breed. they may not been any cross breeding but the staffie come from the bull and terrier and evolved to what the bred it is now.... if you took the 1935 staffy back in time the dog fight and the ra filler what say WTF have you got there.

by jamesboro Fri Feb 10 2012, 23:10

Billy 'the rat killer dog' 1823
- Page 2 Utf-8BSU1HLTIwMTIwMjEwLTAwMjMzLmpwZw

by **Steve** Fri Feb 10 2012, 23:16

i think we both saying the same thing billy was one of many dogs that become the staffie.... yes i'm sure some large staffy got back in the ring like some to day will be classed as a pitbull type

by jamesboro Fri Feb 10 2012, 23:17

and here's a picture Young Storm and Old Storm, 2 of the most famous Bull and Terriers of all time. Chances are your STB is related to these 2!
- Page 2 Utf-8BSU1HLTIwMTIwMjEwLTAwMjM2LmpwZw

- Page 2 Utf-8BSU1HLTIwMTIwMjEwLTAwMjM2LmpwZw

by jamesboro Fri Feb 10 2012, 23:19

oh and these 2 weighed 32kg!

by **Steve** Fri Feb 10 2012, 23:20

you could say that with all the 3 other breed also

by **Steve** Fri Feb 10 2012, 23:22

they both look more like long leged boston terrier to me

by jamesboro Fri Feb 10 2012, 23:22

Yeh steve i know what your saying. My Staffie Jake who died last year weighed 22kg and measured 18 inches. A few times i got accused of owning a Pit Bull but he was all Staffy with a 5 generation pedigree!

by **Steve** Fri Feb 10 2012, 23:28

bull & terrier was a breed of his own right then 4 other breed come from it some may of added new blood in the line but they still come from the bull and terrier becasue if there wasn't a bull terrier the boston terrier. bull terrier ,staffy or even the pitbull would be around today

by **Steve** Fri Feb 10 2012, 23:32

i wish things was record better in them days becasue it would of be cool to really know how the staffe came around.

by **Steve** Fri Feb 10 2012, 23:39

jamesboro wrote:Yeh steve i know what your saying. My Staffie Jake who died last year weighed 22kg and measured 18 inches. A few times i got accused of owning a Pit Bull but he was all Staffy with a 5 generation pedigree!

i'm sorry about hearing that mate Sad

by jamesboro Fri Feb 10 2012, 23:48

I think the fact that its a working class breed that evolved in the slums of England adds to my fascination with it. The fact thats its history is unclear is all the more fascinating. The same with the Pit Bull (another breed i love). Its history is even more unclear, but again, its a working class dog with working class roots.

by **Steve** Fri Feb 10 2012, 23:59

this is just what i think the bulll & terrier was the main fighting dog that was imported to ameircan after a few year a group of people in england found and smaller breed that they like (the staffie), in the ameican like what you said they was running out with good blood so they had the cross breed but trying to keep with the proper lines that prolly set the back a few good years...

i may be right off the mark.

by Guest Sat Feb 11 2012, 12:02

No, I think you're probably spot on, Steve. Although a lot of people who emigrated to the US took their bull & terriers with them, there still wouldn't have been enough to keep the breed pure, and there was probably no intention of doing so anyway!

Other bull & terrier type dogs would have been added to the mix to eventually come up with the APBT. A completely different breed to the stafford, but with the same far distant ancestors.

by Steveb Tue Feb 14 2012, 14:41

Great discussion - the history of all the bull and terrier type dogs is fascinating.

It's also worth remembering that way back no one gave a monkeys about breed of dog - Dogs were classified by type - Retrievers, scent hounds, sight hounds etc... And of course Bull and Terriers. So I guess that as a breed the Bull and Terrier could look quite diverse as the only real consideration was will it do the job intended be that dog fighting, bull baiting or whatever blood sport the people of the day had in mind. And since they bred for performance and bred best to best - I would also guess that anything else could be in there to Smile

.

Performance bred APBT's such as those of the ADBA come in all shapes and sizes as their ability to perform is more important that how they look - so I guess these guys are the closest link to the original Bull and Terrier because the same breeding criteria has been followed. Where as Staffords, Amstaffs and UKC pitbull all follow a set breed standard so would have evolved in different directions over the years - not to mention the standards they follow change.

by **Andy** Tue Feb 14 2012, 14:47

Steveb wrote:Great discussion - the history of all the bull and terrier type dogs is fascinating.

It's also worth remembering that way back no one gave a monkeys about breed of dog - Dogs were classified by type - Retrievers, scent hounds, sight hounds etc... And of course Bull and Terriers. So I guess that as a breed the Bull and Terrier could look quite diverse as the only real consideration was will it do the job intended be that dog fighting, bull baiting or whatever blood sport the people of the day had in mind. And since they bred for performance and bred best to best - I would also guess that anything else could be in there to .

Performance bred APBT's such as those of the ADBA come in all shapes and sizes as their ability to perform is more important that how they look - so I guess these guys are the closest link to the original Bull and Terrier because the same breeding criteria has been followed. Where as Staffords, Amstaffs and UKC pitbull all follow a set breed standard so would have evolved in different directions over the years - not to mention the standards they follow change.

Very true

by Pado Tue Feb 14 2012, 21:43

by Pado Tue Feb 14 2012, 21:44

by Sponsored content