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What a fantastic pic! Really shows the difference, thanks!

P.S. I hope you gave Frank a nice treat for being so good?

Great pic! There's no confusing anything there

great photo

great pic.. but my word i never realized how mashusive pitballs where.. thats obvious now how any one can get them confused...my word the pit bull is just pure muscle...your right frank doesnt look like he wants to be there lol..

Great pic

Beautiful! You can just see by this photo how powerful pits would be, its head is HUGE.

I like them both, they both look cute and cuddly

Mmmmmm ... you sure thats not an AmBully or ABD ? he's a BIG lad and the gate looks a bit ABD to me

You certainly can see the difference when they are side by side, I didn't realize just how much though.

Wow what a diference didn't realise how big they are. Frank looks so much like Billy they even have the same markings on their chest

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yea they alot of different type of pit the fighting/working dogs they are alot leaner than the pit in the image

luvin that photo! Frank is a beauty.
Luv the pit bulls I watch pit bulls and parolees on animal planet on a Sunday night and just think they are all gorgeous.

Pado wrote:I first asked if he was an Amstaff (mainly because of the ears, generally here they are cropped in Pits) but his handler said APBT - I think she said from the Razors line (but I'm not certain as she was talking about different lines, I was more interested in staring at her dog ) She shows him and apparently he's doing well. There are SO many types you see here that they almost look like different breeds. This guy was VERY large but relatively low to the ground when standing .... when he sat it actually grew I guess cause his body was longer and he seemed to me to get taller But he was built like a tank and extremely friendly to everyone - lots of dogs there big and small and he wanted to make friends with everyone.


His handler had never seen an English Staffy in person before and was surprised by Franks size... she was fascinated with him.

Ahhhh right, Razors Edge pits are big dogs ... very impressive

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When it comes to cropped ears, I wouldn't say AmStaffs don't have cropped ears. Show bred AmStaffs tend to have their ears cropped in the US. If you look at all of the champions of AKC shows, they all have cropped ears. UKC bred APBTs often have docked ears, but ADBA bred APBTs often have natural ears. The Razors Edge line is basically an American Bully line at this point. They are massive dogs no where near the breed standard(s) of about 16-22" and 35-65lbs. The main thing with the standard is "Dogs over these weights are not to be penalized unless they are disproportionately massive or rangy" and Razors Edge dogs are often overly massive.

All of that said, though, this is still a really neat photo and that is still a good looking Pit Bull, even if he is a bit over the standard. Thanks for sharing!

Great picture! I have seen some that are pushing 100lbs. The pits here come in so many sizes and shapes like Pado says. Got stopped today while out on a walk wanting to know how I got two that are I got two that were so small. Lol, had to explain what they are. Happens pretty often. Nice to see an APBT without cropped ears. Still happens in the show circuit so I am really pleased to see someone keeping it natural.

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Well, I honestly they are the same breed. AmStaff is the AKC registered an APBT is UKC. They can be cross registered- hence the same breed just two registration names depending on registry. Agree it is confusing.

No worries, Pado! There is a lot of misinformation about the breed out there. Bbimson is right. The AKC wouldn't accept the APBT under the name American Pit Bull Terrier so breed fanciers changed the name to the American Staffordshire Terrier. Other fanciers started their own registry, the UKC, to recognize the APBT. The UKC has become an all breed registry. The AKC's AmStaff is still so similar to the UKC's APBT that there are many dogs dual registered as AmStaffs and APBTs.

Most show bred AKC/UKC AmStaffs/APBTs have their ears cropped despite the fact that the standard for both breeds says that natural ears are preferred. Try telling that to a judge! The ADBA is an APBT only registration and very few ADBA dogs have cropped ears.

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I pretty much have an entire speech set up for these situations, they happen so often! Everybody always asks if he's a puppy. I say, "No he's actually a year old." Half the time people go on to say, "Oh, so he'll still get a lot bigger, then." To which I reply, "He might fill out a bit, but he is done growing tall." Then, when that gets settled they ask something along the lines of, "Why is he so small, he's a Pit Bull, right?" For whatever reason I always emphasize the "Bull" when I say the breed's name, so I end up saying something like, "He's actually a Staffordshire BULL Terrier, which is related to the AmStaff/APBT, but is a completely separate breed" or "which is basically the smaller British cousin of the AmStaff/APBT." Sometimes I break out the dog breed book if I'm at work to show the differences between the breeds.

We do a lot of educating as Stafford owners, eh?

i know someone who's son owns a Razors Edge pit bull. looking at the pictures it looks entirely different than Herman, who is a UKC registered APBT. Razors Edge Kennels has selectivly bred a very distinct dog both in size and shape. the difference between a dog from Razors Edge and my Herman striking.

Yeah, Razors Edge is a VERY Bully line. Some of them aren't all that extreme, but some of them might as well be American Bullies. Not exactly my cup of tea. I prefer dogs with more of a blend of Bull and Terrier, I think Herman is a great example of an APBT!

CatStina wrote:I pretty much have an entire speech set up for these situations, they happen so often! Everybody always asks if he's a puppy. I say, "No he's actually a year old." Half the time people go on to say, "Oh, so he'll still get a lot bigger, then." To which I reply, "He might fill out a bit, but he is done growing tall." Then, when that gets settled they ask something along the lines of, "Why is he so small, he's a Pit Bull, right?" For whatever reason I always emphasize the "Bull" when I say the breed's name, so I end up saying something like, "He's actually a Staffordshire BULL Terrier, which is related to the AmStaff/APBT, but is a completely separate breed" or "which is basically the smaller British cousin of the AmStaff/APBT." Sometimes I break out the dog breed book if I'm at work to show the differences between the breeds.

We do a lot of educating as Stafford owners, eh?

Staffords aren't well known over there though are they?

Not really, no! Very few people that I have spoken to knew what a Stafford was before meeting Saxon and I have only ever met two other Staffords in Maine. Quite a few more people have come to know and love the Stafford in my city, though, thanks to Saxon!

CatStina wrote:Not really, no! Very few people that I have spoken to knew what a Stafford was before meeting Saxon and I have only ever met two other Staffords in Maine. Quite a few more people have come to know and love the Stafford in my city, though, thanks to Saxon!

Good for you and saxon!! Ambassadors for our breed.

I have had exactly 2 strangers know what my dogs were before I told them. They are certainly not common. Many more have argued that SBT is the same as a pit. I just shrug and walk away from that one. I honestly like both breeds. Thanks for the lines Cat! I'm going to steal it if thats ok.

CatStina wrote:Yeah, Razors Edge is a VERY Bully line. Some of them aren't all that extreme, but some of them might as well be American Bullies. Not exactly my cup of tea. I prefer dogs with more of a blend of Bull and Terrier, I think Herman is a great example of an APBT!

thank you cat! and way to rep the staffie

aw great pic 2 lovely dogs although frank really did need that treat afterwards imagine you being mean enough to make him sit and stay for a photo shoot

No problem, bbimson! Use away! Thanks, Matt, we try, lol!

what an amazing difference in the two ....the pit bull was massive!

great photo..especially for people who think they are the same breed!

a couple of summers ago Herman met what looked like a staffie in the park. she was a rescue as someone had poured acid on her head and face, leaving a sizable scar

after what she went through she was understandably shy when Herman went to greet her. she initialy told him off, but then came over to check him out and they got on fine.

Poor little girl! Humans disgust me sometimes. Their cruelty knows no bounds.

CatStina wrote:Poor little girl! Humans disgust me sometimes. Their cruelty knows no bounds.

agree completely!

darling lil' gal named "Roxy".

Great pic! Thats an unusually huge and impressive Pit Bull. Did you ask what it weighed? Of course the original pits were no were near that size. They needed to be small enough to be picked out of the pit by the handler. Also pits are descendants of staffy bulls. The british settlers took their 'Bull and Terrier' fighting dogs with them to the 'new world'. In England the Bull and Terrier became know as the Staffordshire Bull Terrier and in America it became known as the Pit Bull. Reports of dog fights from around the early 1800's put Bull and Terrier weights (from both sides of the Atlantic) from as low as 12kg up to around 32kg with opposing dogs weights being matched(much like boxers today). So these 40-50kg dogs are extremely exaggerated.

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Yes the history of Bull breeds is something i'm really interested in and i'm a bit of an anorak about it . As you say there's several theories but if you look at paintings of the Staffordshire Bull Terrier from the nineteenth century (there's not many of them due to the expense of commissioning a painting and the Staffy being a largely working class dog) its actually more like a modern day Pit bull (20kg-30kg one) than a modern day Staffy. The nineteenth century Staffy also looks remarkably like the original Bulldog but not as heavy set (as you'd imagine with the mix of Terrier blood). When the KC recognised the Staffy as a true breed in 1935 its height was put at 15-18 inches but this was changed in 1948 to 14-16 inches to completely separate it from James Hinks Bull Terrier which ranges from 18-22 inches. This further moved the Staffy away from its original form. So whilst the Staffy became shorter legged and more squat, in America the Pit Bull went the other way getting bigger (they always have to be the biggest! ).

Here's an oil painting of Staffordshire Bull Terriers by E. Loder from 1883

You could say they are essentially the same breed. The Bull and Terrier was in fact the early name for the Staffy in England, the Bull and Terriers that left for America became know as Pit Bulls. So there's a fork in there ancestry from around the early 19th century when Bull and Terriers left for America. Some theories say that mastiff blood was introduced to the Bull and Terrier to produce the larger framed Pit Bull but if you look at the paintings of Bull and Terriers/Staffys from the 19th century they look remarkably like Pit Bulls. Also it was not uncommon in the 19th century for Bull and Terriers/Staffys to weigh in excess of 20kg, and although not the norm fight records even show fights between dogs weighing in excess of 30kg.

Its all highly contentious though.

we should be happy they changed the standard becasue the staffy would of been banned with the pitbull in 1991

history
http://staffy-bull-terrier.co.uk/history.html

jamesboro wrote:The Bull and Terrier was in fact the early name for the Staffy in England, the Bull and Terriers that left for America became know as Pit Bulls.

i would agree with this

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Pado wrote:Was reading some on John P Colby - who has a name in the APBT history. One site mentioned he would pay Irish Immigrants to come to the Americas if they would bring a "good bull dog" with them - (my guess this could be a Staffy ... ??) .... there are old pics of Colby dogs that look remarkably like SBT's - and truth be told the Staffy and Pit bull are somewhat' similar in look.

Now thats my two day's worth of education on the matter

it could also mean bull & terrier without real fact we we never know.

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the staffy come from the bull and terrier