PET PASSPORT FRENCH DDA AMMENDMENT

https://s1118.photobucket.com/albums/k615/harlou1/happy%20days/?action=view&current=Staffordshire.jpg
I HOPE IVE GOT THE RIGHT PHOTO !

WTF ??

In English?

You have called my attention to the problem of identification of Staffordshire Bull Terriers, then I lost it , bloody French

If you are taking your staffy to France pedigree or not take a copy of this basically it says staffys are not on the dda (in french) cos the french cant read english, probably!!!!!!!!!

Confused!

harlou wrote:If you are taking your staffy to France pedigree or not take a copy of this basically it says staffys are not on the dda (in french) cos the french cant read english, probably!!!!!!!!!

The problem comes if there Defra passport states they are a staff x , purebreds are fine as long as they have papers. I currently have my defra vet finding out if the passport is enough as in my opinion he is good enough to say if she is a x or not , but whether the french authorities see it like that is another matter. Tilly is 100% but has no KC papers to back this up, my Vet is going to speak to Defra on Monday and let me know , I will let you all know then

Some people copy this and keep it with their pet passport so if asked what type of dog they have( the french sometimes mistake staffys for pitbulls) they can show the passport and the ammendment ,we were never asked and took harry and louie all over,one old french guy asked if they were vicious once we said no he wouldnt stop playing with them,france is well worth a visit the people are very friendly (exept parisians)

DEFRA are a waste of time! go to the french embassy website type in the search space staffordshire bull terrier that will tell you that staffordshire bull terriers are not on their dda list

harlou wrote:DEFRA are a waste of time! go to the french embassy website type in the search space staffordshire bull terrier that will tell you that staffordshire bull terriers are not on their dda list

Sorry you're missing my point , I know they are not on the list. The problems arise if you have a x breed and papers say staffy x breed.

I am trying to find out , as I think many other people are, what dictates the name on the passport. Is it only a 100% staff if you can back it up with KC papers , or is it good enough for our Vet to make the decision, this is why I have our Vet making the enquiries now as he doesn't know himself.

If the vet statetes that your dog is a staffy true too breed and stamps the paper , that will do ,believe me, we spend 8 months of the year there and lived there for 2 with two staffy crassess

harlou wrote:If the vet statetes that your dog is a staffy true too breed and stamps the paper , that will do ,believe me, we spend 8 months of the year there and lived there for 2 with two staffy crassess

Thats good news for me then, but I will still let the vet have his say when he's had the info just in case anyhting has changed along with the other new changes, looks like all I've got to do now is convince the OH to go to France on holiday, we took the Caravan there 4 years ago and had a couple of major run ins with a couple of younger French people, the ones that give the country a bad reputation with their arrogance over the English, I was quite lucky I wasn't arrested when I stood my ground and told them a few truths

The problem you could experience is that in order to prove that your dog is a staff, you (by French law) would have to provide Kennel Club Registration details. It may not be enough to have someone (even a vet) say that your dog is pure staff.

Your dog may well be a pure staff, but you may have to prove it & a vet cannot be 100% sure. The only thing that is acceptable is the Registration document from the KC.

You may well get away with it. The majority won't even be questioned about it, but you should be aware that the Reg. Doc is the only document that is legally accepted.

Caryll wrote:The problem you could experience is that in order to prove that your dog is a staff, you (by French law) would have to provide Kennel Club Registration details. It may not be enough to have someone (even a vet) say that your dog is pure staff.

Your dog may well be a pure staff, but you may have to prove it & a vet cannot be 100% sure. The only thing that is acceptable is the Registration document from the KC.

You may well get away with it. The majority won't even be questioned about it, but you should be aware that the Reg. Doc is the only document that is legally accepted.

I think it's a risk we will have to take TBH as otherwise we have to resign ourselves to a summer holiday in the UK for the 40th Birthday of the Mrs, she wanted to go to Greece or somewhere but we both feel the same about leaving Tilly. One hing that is for sure is the worst case scaenario is they ask you to leave the country , it is 100% certain they will not take the dog from you

Just found this letter from the French Embassy on another website

For any other Staffie or Staffie Cross owners considering venturing across the Channel, I shall copy the Email letter which I received today from the French Consulate in London:

“Dear Mrs Gowen,

I am afraid the legislation in France does not allow entry on french
territory to dogs of the 1st category (so-called “attack dogs” -
staffordshire bull terriers, american staffordshire, bull mastiff and
Japanese tosas) without a pedigree certificate from a national registrar such as the Kennel Club.

This legislation was enacted to curb the import of pit bulls, cross
breeds of molossoids frequently trained as fighting dogs. Personally, I
consider this is obviously unfair to staffies, usually friendly and “big
softies”, and to the people who own them, and frequently have them
rescued from the RSPCA refuges. The law, however, is very strictly
enforced due to a series of unfortunate accidents in the recent past.

The question, if you want to bring your staffie with you, is that of
identification. What is the breed mentioned in the Europeaan Pet
Passport ? If it is Staffie cross, this will obviously not be accepted.
Another formulation could possibly be acceptable (does your dog look
like a boxer or bull-dog cross ? those are not 1st category).

It is also a question of morphology. Does your dog have the typical look
of the staffie cross (typical “stop” between the muzzle nose and eyes,
proeminent jaw on the sides, thin whip-like tail ? If she does not look
like that, the dog could also be acceptable.

Finally, your dog will in no circumstance be put down just because it’s
a staffie cross – French people are animal lovers too, even if staffies
are not as frequent – and popular – there as in the UK. The only risk is
that you might have to curtail your holidays and bring the dog back to
the UK.

I am really sorry for the bad news, but I would like you to have an
exact view of the situation. Should you wish your companion to be with
you during the holidays, remember that 1st category dogs are usually
kept on a lead and muzzled in public places, and on public transport.

Yours very sincerely,

Jean-Pascal CODINE
Customs Counsellor
French Embassy, London”

Our lovely dog was rescued by the RSPCA from a bad place and there is no way we would ever consider putting her back into kennels. She is a gentle ‘softie’ and wonderful with our young grandchildren.

So we shall be enjoying the campsites of England and Wales this summer.

This letter is from 2007 read all the replys!!! do not listen to anyone email the french embassy in london as we did ,that is how we took Harry and Louis to France they were staffy crossess .You can find loads of missleading crap on the internet.We still will be taking Olly even thou he only has his breeders ped .

If you want to take your staffy to france kc reg or not you will not be welcome at any campsite, we have all ways had our own place so if you want to go camping forget it ,the germans(whose idea it was to ban them and all the rest followed) allmost wiped out our gorgeous staffs they took them from their owners and destroyed tem in some regions ,but the germans are good at that! and they run europe !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

harlou wrote:If you want to take your staffy to france kc reg or not you will not be welcome at any campsite, we have all ways had our own place so if you want to go camping forget it ,the germans(whose idea it was to ban them and all the rest followed) allmost wiped out our gorgeous staffs they took them from their owners and destroyed tem in some regions ,but the germans are good at that! and they run europe !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I work for a German company (and a very big one at that) they are not all so bad , my work friends all love Tilly and are realists

harlou wrote:If you want to take your staffy to france kc reg or not you will not be welcome at any campsite, we have all ways had our own place so if you want to go camping forget it ,the germans(whose idea it was to ban them and all the rest followed) allmost wiped out our gorgeous staffs they took them from their owners and destroyed tem in some regions ,but the germans are good at that! and they run europe !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think that's a bit simplistic & a little unfair!

It was the governments that introduced the legislation - just as they did in this country. That doesn't make all the people bad! I've been to france many times & have actually found the french to be far more friendly towards foreigners than the british are!

What it comes down to, I'm afraid, is that you are going to someone else's country & you will have to abide by their laws whether you like them or not. The law in france says that although you can take a staff into the country, it has to be pure staff & not a cross or 'pit' type (same as here, really) and the way to prove it's a staff is to show the regsitration document from the kennel club.

Not once did i say anything against the french people,they are the nicest most welcoming people i have met ,but you are still wrong about the law in france!

harlou wrote:Not once did i say anything against the french people,they are the nicest most welcoming people i have met ,but you are still wrong about the law in france!

Letter from the French Embassy in London...........

"Dear Mrs xxxxxx,

I am afraid the legislation in France does not allow entry on french
territory to dogs of the 1st category (so-called “attack dogs” -
staffordshire bull terriers, american staffordshire, bull mastiff and
Japanese tosas) without a pedigree certificate from a national registrar such as the Kennel Club.

This legislation was enacted to curb the import of pit bulls, cross
breeds of molossoids frequently trained as fighting dogs. Personally, I
consider this is obviously unfair to staffies, usually friendly and “big
softies”, and to the people who own them, and frequently have them
rescued from the RSPCA refuges. The law, however, is very strictly
enforced due to a series of unfortunate accidents in the recent past.

The question, if you want to bring your staffie with you, is that of
identification. What is the breed mentioned in the Europeaan Pet
Passport ? If it is Staffie cross, this will obviously not be accepted.
Another formulation could possibly be acceptable (does your dog look
like a boxer or bull-dog cross ? those are not 1st category).

It is also a question of morphology. Does your dog have the typical look
of the staffie cross (typical “stop” between the muzzle nose and eyes,
proeminent jaw on the sides, thin whip-like tail ? If she does not look
like that, the dog could also be acceptable.

Finally, your dog will in no circumstance be put down just because it’s
a staffie cross – French people are animal lovers too, even if staffies
are not as frequent – and popular – there as in the UK. The only risk is
that you might have to curtail your holidays and bring the dog back to
the UK.

I am really sorry for the bad news, but I would like you to have an
exact view of the situation. Should you wish your companion to be with
you during the holidays, remember that 1st category dogs are usually
kept on a lead and muzzled in public places, and on public transport.

Yours very sincerely,

Jean-Pascal CODINE
Customs Counsellor
French Embassy, London”

How do you E mail the embasys when i tried i went on the web site but couldn't find a E mail address?I wanted to contact the French and German embassys.

Dave wrote:

Caryll wrote:The problem you could experience is that in order to prove that your dog is a staff, you (by French law) would have to provide Kennel Club Registration details. It may not be enough to have someone (even a vet) say that your dog is pure staff.

Your dog may well be a pure staff, but you may have to prove it & a vet cannot be 100% sure. The only thing that is acceptable is the Registration document from the KC.

You may well get away with it. The majority won't even be questioned about it, but you should be aware that the Reg. Doc is the only document that is legally accepted.

I think it's a risk we will have to take TBH as otherwise we have to resign ourselves to a summer holiday in the UK for the 40th Birthday of the Mrs, she wanted to go to Greece or somewhere but we both feel the same about leaving Tilly. One hing that is for sure is the worst case scaenario is they ask you to leave the country , it is 100% certain they will not take the dog from you

Just found this letter from the French Embassy on another website

For any other Staffie or Staffie Cross owners considering venturing across the Channel, I shall copy the Email letter which I received today from the French Consulate in London:

“Dear Mrs Gowen,

I am afraid the legislation in France does not allow entry on french
territory to dogs of the 1st category (so-called “attack dogs” -
staffordshire bull terriers, american staffordshire, bull mastiff and
Japanese tosas) without a pedigree certificate from a national registrar such as the Kennel Club.

This legislation was enacted to curb the import of pit bulls, cross
breeds of molossoids frequently trained as fighting dogs. Personally, I
consider this is obviously unfair to staffies, usually friendly and “big
softies”, and to the people who own them, and frequently have them
rescued from the RSPCA refuges. The law, however, is very strictly
enforced due to a series of unfortunate accidents in the recent past.

The question, if you want to bring your staffie with you, is that of
identification. What is the breed mentioned in the Europeaan Pet
Passport ? If it is Staffie cross, this will obviously not be accepted.
Another formulation could possibly be acceptable (does your dog look
like a boxer or bull-dog cross ? those are not 1st category).

It is also a question of morphology. Does your dog have the typical look
of the staffie cross (typical “stop” between the muzzle nose and eyes,
proeminent jaw on the sides, thin whip-like tail ? If she does not look
like that, the dog could also be acceptable.

Finally, your dog will in no circumstance be put down just because it’s
a staffie cross – French people are animal lovers too, even if staffies
are not as frequent – and popular – there as in the UK. The only risk is
that you might have to curtail your holidays and bring the dog back to
the UK.

I am really sorry for the bad news, but I would like you to have an
exact view of the situation. Should you wish your companion to be with
you during the holidays, remember that 1st category dogs are usually
kept on a lead and muzzled in public places, and on public transport.

Yours very sincerely,

Jean-Pascal CODINE
Customs Counsellor
French Embassy, London”

Our lovely dog was rescued by the RSPCA from a bad place and there is no way we would ever consider putting her back into kennels. She is a gentle ‘softie’ and wonderful with our young grandchildren.

So we shall be enjoying the campsites of England and Wales this summer.

Hi Dave did you take the risk and take Tilly with you ? How did you get on ? We are facing the same dilemma Riley has Staffordshire bull terrier on his passport but we have no papers , I really don't know what to do

Dave wrote:

harlou wrote:If you are taking your staffy to France pedigree or not take a copy of this basically it says staffys are not on the dda (in french) cos the french cant read english, probably!!!!!!!!!

The problem comes if there Defra passport states they are a staff x , purebreds are fine as long as they have papers. I currently have my defra vet finding out if the passport is enough as in my opinion he is good enough to say if she is a x or not , but whether the french authorities see it like that is another matter. Tilly is 100% but has no KC papers to back this up, my Vet is going to speak to Defra on Monday and let me know , I will let you all know then

Hi Dave did your vet find out for you ,I'm facing the same dilemma at the minute , I have no papers for riley just his passport from my vet. Stating Staffordshire bull terrier

janesmart16 wrote:How do you E mail the embasys when i tried i went on the web site but couldn't find a E mail address?I wanted to contact the French and German embassys.

Try this...
http://www.ambafrance-uk.org/Visa-Department

Lynn Steve & Riley wrote:
Hi Dave did your vet find out for you ,I'm facing the same dilemma at the minute , I have no papers for riley just his passport from my vet. Stating Staffordshire bull terrier

From what I can make out, the only problem comes with staffy crosses or staffords that look like crosses. If your passport says Staffordshire Bull Terrier, and your dog looks like a staff (not a cross) then you should be ok!

Lynn Steve & Riley wrote:

Dave wrote:

harlou wrote:If you are taking your staffy to France pedigree or not take a copy of this basically it says staffys are not on the dda (in french) cos the french cant read english, probably!!!!!!!!!

The problem comes if there Defra passport states they are a staff x , purebreds are fine as long as they have papers. I currently have my defra vet finding out if the passport is enough as in my opinion he is good enough to say if she is a x or not , but whether the french authorities see it like that is another matter. Tilly is 100% but has no KC papers to back this up, my Vet is going to speak to Defra on Monday and let me know , I will let you all know then

Hi Dave did your vet find out for you ,I'm facing the same dilemma at the minute , I have no papers for riley just his passport from my vet. Stating Staffordshire bull terrier

Sorry we didn't get anywhere with all of this so we holidayed in UK (and had a lovely week of great sunshine.)

Simple statement is that if you don't have a registered pedigree staff and the papers to prove it you run the risk of your holiday being cut short , however a few memebers have taken the risk and been ok . I'm not endorsing it , just giving you facts, personally I decided not to risk it

I realise this is an old thread, but I just want to add that I believe the earlier confusion in the discussion was fuelled by incorrect information given by the gentleman from the French Embassy.

He states that SBT's are category 1 attack dogs and are regulated as a result. This is absolutely not true. The confusion occurred because the dangerous dogs legislation said that inside category 1 were: "Staffordshire Terrier and American Staffordshire Terrier" along with Mastiffs, Tosas and pitbulls. Included, are crosses of these dogs... and they will be labelled pitbulls.

The present government document says clearly that:

1. "Staffordshire Terrier" is the old name for "American Staffordshire Terrier" 2. The Staffordshire Bull Terrier is not listed amongst those breeds and is not considered to be dangerous.

Source: http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/particuliers/F1839.xhtml

The problem is, if you can't prove that your Staffy is a pedigree SBT, then it may be classed as a pitbull.

Unfortunately, I can't confirm if a passport, stating that a dog is a SBT, will be sufficient to keep you out of trouble in the event of a police or customs spot-check. For sure, if your Staffy has a pedigree and you have the papers with you (along with the passport), then you will have absolutely no problem whatsoever.

I'm not sure what is the risk level of bringing along a non pedigree Staffie...but I guess if you are caught, then your holiday could be over on the spot, unfortunately. Hope that helps.

The last message is about right, we take Ella to france and we always take her KC reg just in case. At customs they check the pet passport but hardly give the dog a second glance. Its the bobby on the beat that could cause trouble. If you are caught with a staffy x over there you will be asked to leave the country.
As for Campsites we go to a place called Twin lakes down near Bordeaux they love staffys down there.
http://www.twinlakesfrance.com/

TS06 wrote:
I'm not sure what is the risk level of bringing along a non pedigree Staffie...but I guess if you are caught, then your holiday could be over on the spot, unfortunately. Hope that helps.

This is the thing that really holds me back and I suppose now having 2 makes it worse as I can produce papers for no 2 but not no 1 so makes it a little more suspicious Such a shame , getting a new car in July and would have loved to have done the trip but just doubting about the risk

In the 8 months since I became involved (ie researched the legal implications and adopted a Staffy in France), I've seen a few straight-up APBT's and unmuzzled Amstaffs being walked. Where I thought I would receive a sensible reply, I made a point of chatting with the owners, mainly to further my own knowledge.

The people I spoke to were nice and their dogs were well socialised, so there was no issue, but they lived warily. I gathered that it would just take one call from someone who took exception to something trivial, for the police to intervene and be required to apply the law.

If you own a dog which may be considered generically a pitbull (and is not registered with the town hall / with you as a trained 'dangerous dog' keeper) and your neighbour is unfriendly, then you wouldn't want your hedge expanding too far into his or her garden, for instance.

Of course, as a holidaymaker, you may never reach the point where the police challenge you. I've never taken my pooch across the channel, so can't comment on the customs checkpoints, but I guess the most likely threat could occur, if your dogs are attacked and they give a reasonable account of themselves, then a hysterical owner of the attacking dog, could make a scene. This is just speculation of course.

For reference, in the 8 months I've had my Staffy, I haven't once been asked to prove my little fellow's pedigree (though I keep a copy of his docs on my phone in case). None of the French native Staffy owners I know of (around 100 across France) have been challenged.

I know this doesn't really help... I just mention this to give some perspective which may inform your decision whether to take the risk or not.

We got stopped by gendarmes once in a little town in the middle of france,they thought he was a pitbull ? remember staffys are rare in france i showed them this i also had a copy of his pet passport they said sorry for asking but they had to be sure he wasnt a pitbull or amstaff then they all fussed him and off we went .

That's interesting!

The document you presented is a guidance paper for interpretation and application of the law, made available to the police. It states clearly that the SBT is not classed as dangerous. It's an excellent piece of evidence to carry around!

Did they accept the pet passport as categoric proof that the dog is a pure Staffy?

I'm not completely convinced that the passport alone can be relied upon to do this. Having said that, French police are extremely unlikely to harrass nice, friendly tourists and may be satisfied with appearing to have done their due diligence.

All i can say is what experiences i have, had we spend 6 months of the year in France i know lots of people in France with staffys and staffy crosses i find the negativity here weird i thought it was a site for all staffy owners not just KC reg staffs .Going to France in 2 weeks.

harlou wrote:All i can say is what experiences i have, had we spend 6 months of the year in France i know lots of people in France with staffys and staffy crosses i find the negativity here weird i thought it was a site for all staffy owners not just KC reg staffs .Going to France in 2 weeks.

Think that's a bit of an unfair comment to make , we are certainly not negative or prejudice against staff x's , in the eyes of the stupid French rulings my girl is classed as a staffy x , am I prejudiced with her as I can't prove she isn't ?? ......... so please rethink when you make such comments in the future. If there is any negativity then it is negativity based on actual facts and not experiences. If people choose to base decisions around other peoples experiences it is still important for them to know what the law is ok

harlou wrote:All i can say is what experiences i have, had we spend 6 months of the year in France i know lots of people in France with staffys and staffy crosses i find the negativity here weird i thought it was a site for all staffy owners not just KC reg staffs .Going to France in 2 weeks.

Isn't the conversation just about helping people to be aware of and to judge the risks associated with travelling across borders on holiday? Don't know where your outburst comes from. Surely it's better to know what threats we face, even if in the end, we choose to ignore them.

TS06 wrote:

harlou wrote:All i can say is what experiences i have, had we spend 6 months of the year in France i know lots of people in France with staffys and staffy crosses i find the negativity here weird i thought it was a site for all staffy owners not just KC reg staffs .Going to France in 2 weeks.

Isn't the conversation just about helping people to be aware of and to judge the risks associated with travelling across borders on holiday? Don't know where your outburst comes from. Surely it's better to know what threats we face, even if in the end, we choose to ignore them.

Thats all the point I was trying to get across

TS06 wrote:

harlou wrote:All i can say is what experiences i have, had we spend 6 months of the year in France i know lots of people in France with staffys and staffy crosses i find the negativity here weird i thought it was a site for all staffy owners not just KC reg staffs .Going to France in 2 weeks.

Isn't the conversation just about helping people to be aware of and to judge the risks associated with travelling across borders on holiday? Don't know where your outburst comes from. Surely it's better to know what threats we face, even if in the end, we choose to ignore them.

Well said.

HI, JUST FOUND THIS TOPIC AND AM NOW VERY WORRIED. WE HAVE A STAFFY DOG 100% STAFF BUT NO PAPERS, WE BOOKED A COTTAGE IN FRANCE LAST WEEK. DID NOT KNOW THEY WERE ON FRENCH DDA. IS IT LIKELY WE WILL BE STOPPED AT THE FERRY PORT. OR DO WE RISK IT. ANY INFO WOULD BE GREAT,
THANKS, CAROLE

Carole , it seems from experience you are most likely to be ok , however, you must know the law and be aware of the possibilities and the facts are that without papers it is possible you could be challenged and asked to leave the country. Don't want to put the scare tactics on you these are just facts, but if you look at experience it is highly unlikely you will have problems. As a normal good citizen just make sure your dogs are well behaved and hope you will be fine :

I think Dave summarises the situation nicely. I suggest that you print off the document kindly provided by Harlou and keep it along with your pet passport on you at all times.

If you are asked about the breed, state with a confident smile that your dog is a Staffy (pronounced 'Staffee'). Full name is pronounced: 'Staffordsheer Buull Terree-yay'. Under no circumstances, should you allow anyone to suggest that your dog is a 'Staff' or a 'Staffordshire', since these terms in France mean 'Amstaff'. Many people, including police officers don't know that the breeds are different, so you should educate them in a soft tone and with a big smile.

The worst outcome would be that they argue that they accept the breeds are different, but that a passport doesn't prove the dog's breed and you are required to show further proof. If this happens, there is a second approach you could take. In another thread in this sub-forum, I translated a little bit of text from another document, explaining what could be mistaken for a (generically termed) pitbull. Print it off and take it along also (the French original, not my translation:)).

Does you dog fall inside normal SBT size range? Unless your Staffy is very big, you may be able to use this as backup.... your dog is probably on the low side of the height & weight range likely to be a pitbull, because as you had so pleasantly said, he is a Staffy and even the ministry of agriculture's website details the fact that Staffies are not dangerous.

French police do not wish to harrass nice tourists, so unless there is some dramatic issue, once you get past customs and are inside France, be friendly to any police you meet and you should be OK.

Have a great holiday. What area will you visit?

Here's the link to my other post (re 'pitbull' definition):

https://staffy-bull-terrier.niceboard.com/t19213p50-driving-to-poland-with-staffy

Good post TS06

Dave wrote:Carole , it seems from experience you are most likely to be ok , however, you must know the law and be aware of the possibilities and the facts are that without papers it is possible you could be challenged and asked to leave the country. Don't want to put the scare tactics on you these are just facts, but if you look at experience it is highly unlikely you will have problems. As a normal good citizen just make sure your dogs are well behaved and hope you will be fine :

hi, we have decided to cancel our trip this time as we have only paid the deposit, just dont want to risk it, thanks for info, carole