Advise needed please

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Advise needed please

Post by FlipFlop on Mon Feb 20 2017, 10:55

Hiya, as some may know I rescued at Sattfy at 8 months old. He will be one this week.

He has started jumping up at the lead and trying to play I guess tug game, not only the lead my jacked too which he has caught my skin ( which I know isn't deliberate but it's caused it to bleed )

It's not safe for him ( luckily this doesn't happen on the main roads as have to let go of the lead )

He is still a In tacked dog could this be the reason ?

Any advice much appreciated on this because of the dangers to Ronnie.

I use a Lunge lead and a smaller lead. He has even gone for a chain lead the handle then my coat sleeve.

Many thanks Jamie
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Re: Advise needed please

Post by FlipFlop on Mon Feb 20 2017, 11:30

https://youtu.be/Df9CEfwXLpA

This is the sort of behaviour he is displaying

This morning was after he had done a poo and I'd picked it up. My arm is very sore as is my side
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Re: Advise needed please

Post by LizP on Mon Feb 20 2017, 12:27

What I'm seeing on that video (which I know isn't you) is undirected excitement. It's very common with young dogs and even more so with staffies. It isn't usually very difficult to retrain with a bit of structure and a lot of consistency.

You'll need a tuggy toy of some sort, preferably something that allows distance between your hands and his mouth, and some high value treats. If you need a suggestion, we have one of these and it's brilliant:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/JW-Pet-43135-Invincible-Assorted/dp/B0002DJXFI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1487592200&sr=8-1&keywords=invincible+chain

Before you ever even once play a tuggy game with it, teach him leave it. Have your really yummy treats ready, then quietly give him the toy. Once he's holding it, say 'leave it' in a happy voice and put the treat under his nose. He should drop the toy to take the treat. Let him have it. Do this a few times so he understands 'leave it' means leave the toy to get the treat. Practise until you are confident he's got it.

Then, do the same but don't put the treat under his nose first, just ask for 'leave it' and he should give you the same response, i.e. dropping the toy, because he now knows what to expect.

Practise till he'll bang on, and also try with other objects that he might pick up. Reward with a treat and also with getting his toy back.

Then it's time to up it but introducing the tug. Have a very short tuggy game, only a few seconds so he doesn't get over excited, then ask him to leave it. If it's hard, shove the treat under his nose. Again, reward with the treat and with having another tuggy game. If you want to see what it looks like, this is me with Jarvis. I didn't have the luxury of time with him, I was there to do his photoshoot rather than training, so what you see is all in one session of about 15 minutes. I had done a couple of minutes before deciding to video. Jarvis was really jumpy and mouthy - he'd got my arm when I was getting him out of his kennel - but giving him that little bit of training and structure transformed him:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-ZUDsEPbqw

Remember you control the end. When you've finished playing, put the toy away or on the ground and finish. If he picks it up again or won't let go at any point, walk off and leave him. It's not really the toy he wants, it's for you to play with him so he's not 'won'.

Jarvis is exceptionally bright and quick, and I'm an experienced trainer. Yes, he did know some bits like sit before hand but the rest is all learning. There is no reason why you can't achieve the same with this method in not many sessions.

Ok, so you've now got tuggy toy with an on/off switch. This means two things. Firstly, you should be able to apply that to anything he has in his mouth, including your limbs and clothing. Don't wait for him to get hyper, as soon as he starts ask for 'leave it' and give him something else to do that can get your praise and attention in a positive way. As well as that, you also have something that he can have a good tug with, where he can interact with you in the way he's seeking, that you feel safe with an that you control.

As well as that, I'd work on basic commands such as sit and heel, so that you can help him know what to do. Very often, inappropriate behaviours start when a dog doesn't know what else to do, so he chooses what he thinks will get him what he wants and, because it's often your attention and interaction, it works so it's worth doing it again, and again, and again... By giving him other things to do instead, fun things for him, he can learn to interact with you in a way that's right for both him and you.

I hope that helps!


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Re: Advise needed please

Post by FlipFlop on Mon Feb 20 2017, 12:55

Thanks you as ever, will have a look at these.

When he is doing it if I a sit he sits straight away ( stops him )

I wait give him a treat or his ball then he normally stops ( I change the lead to th short chain one )

Today he even kept jumping with the ball, I play tug with him in the house but the lead he is more excited. I can see he is going to do it, Saturday mornings walk I did with " No " manage to stop him that said he did it later in.

Friday Saturday and today he has done it, before that I'd say 3/4 times since we have had him.
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Re: Advise needed please

Post by FlipFlop on Mon Feb 20 2017, 13:09

Have subscribed to your channel Liz that's brilliant
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Re: Advise needed please

Post by FlipFlop on Mon Feb 20 2017, 13:12

Would him carrying a toy of some sorts be a idea ? Can't be a ball as he drops it and tries to play with it haha
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Re: Advise needed please

Post by FlipFlop on Mon Feb 20 2017, 14:49

Have decided to attempt the same walk as this morning with the Lunge lead on him, as it has happened at the same spots of the walk, one is just before I let him have more freedom on the lead, the other is as we come off the fields ( learnt behaviour ? Over excited or unhappy tantrum ? )

Have him leaving food on the floor walking past on the lead..

Obviously he is listening as will sit when al this is going on, amazing nobody has Called the police saying a dangerous Staffy is attacking a man haha that's what it must look like, specially with me saying awwww when he catches my arms and back this morning... he jumps up like jack in the box ha
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Re: Advise needed please

Post by FlipFlop on Mon Feb 20 2017, 17:16

Hiya I did exactly the same start to the walk, and where Ronnie got over excited this morning. Not on the Lunge but on the small chain lead, then swapping to the medium lead some tennis ball chasing off the lead, but not for long I think he jarred his front right paw Sad

I've had him leaving food on the floor in the kitchen this afternoon too.

Other that this lead stuff he doesn't really mouth or jump up now he has learned.

He isn't really into tug o war this is why it's confusing me, if he has a toy or rope one he just shreds it to bits ( like the bruises on my wrist haha ) but when he goes for the lead he is at a 10 in excitement.

Fridays go Was after he'd lunged at dog and scared the owner to death ( she was on her phone )

He is definitely having selective hearing with me, recall is absolutely bang on he knows no, as just proven went for the cushion and didn't when he heard " NO "

Not fussed about my jackets or arms, but I am regarded his safety he is a cracking dog in all other walks of life, plays with dogs excepts older dogs telling him off. Was playing with a 2 year old bitch Staffy on a walk would run after her and just come running back to me without being called " would treat him and send him off again.

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Re: Advise needed please

Post by LizP on Mon Feb 20 2017, 20:52

It very much sounds like excitement and anticipation of excitement to me. It also sounds like you've got a great dog there, bright and happy to learn, and you've already got some basics in place, which is great.

If he's not into tuggy toys, is there another fun game you can play on walks that would achieve the same thing? You're really after a game where he can get excited but under your control, something that will sate his need to express his excitement that doesn't involve your body in any way. If he likes a ball, then maybe playing with that might be more up his street. Or, if he likes grabbing at the lead, how about a piece of rope that's sort of lead like, that you can make into his walking toy?

The other thing that's coming out from your posts is that you can in fact anticipate when he's going to do this. That's very helpful as it means you can get there first! If he does it just before he expects to be let off the lead, go into control mode before he starts. Ask him to pay attention to you, do some heel work, and reward him for being calm. If he starts to get excited and you can't redirect that excitement in a structured way, turn round and go back away from the exciting place. The rule now is he only ever gets let off the lead when he's calm - to get what he wants he has to do what you want first.

Leave it seems to be working well, so extend that to anything and everything, you want him to let go of anything you ask him to, as soon as you ask, in exchange for a high value reward. That reward is whatever he values most, so his ball, a piece of cheese, whatever is big for him.

And keep observing and thinking. Keep looking for patterns, anticipating his responses to things, and try hard to step in and give him an alternative action before he gets carried away.

By the way, the channel the video of Jarvis is on is the rescue centre's where I post the dogs for rehoming. There's not much training there usually but lots of lovely dogs!


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Re: Advise needed please

Post by FlipFlop on Tue Feb 21 2017, 09:00

Morning thanks LizP thanks for your
advice...

Should see the bruise on my side haha black and blue

Definitely think you're right re excitement too, as I said he did listen to NO on Saturday morning but he did go into a lead attack later on in the walk. Will take him this morning Same walk but on the medium lead and see what happens. I know they say dogs don't do guilt be he has been good as gold since yesterday's fun and games...

He is a very good dog best I've ever had for his age he is 1 tomorrow

But yes will work on heel ( he does it very well ) and sit and halt him to keep him calm.

I love dogs more than most humans so enjoy seeing dogs rehomed Smile


Last edited by FlipFlop on Tue Feb 21 2017, 09:00; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Phat fingers)
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Re: Advise needed please

Post by FlipFlop on Tue Feb 21 2017, 09:02

Have order a ball on a rope to see if this helps as he can carry it plus we can throw in when he is off the lead...


Last edited by FlipFlop on Tue Feb 21 2017, 09:03; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : As before)
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Re: Advise needed please

Post by LizP on Tue Feb 21 2017, 10:12

thumbs up


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Re: Advise needed please

Post by FlipFlop on Tue Feb 21 2017, 12:27

Was a very good walk, had him at heel most of it, bar a few pulls he was very very good. Even had a a little game of fetch the tennis ball until he started hiding them so he could have two balls to play with haha


Last edited by FlipFlop on Tue Feb 21 2017, 12:35; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : As normal)
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Re: Advise needed please

Post by FlipFlop on Tue Feb 21 2017, 14:03

Also what sort on mileage should we be doing per day please ?

Currently 2.5 miles in the morning
Evening 3/4 miles

Some off leash also chasing a tennis ball.

Too much ? As I said he is one tomorrow

Clicker training worth ago for heel work ?

Think I was letting him have too much of his own way on walks with some reflections. Specially on the Lunge line on the morning walk as wanted him to have a nice walk did do heel recall but he had most of the walk to sniff etc.
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Re: Advise needed please

Post by LizP on Wed Feb 22 2017, 08:10

You'll be fine to walk pretty well any distance now. That's certainly not too much.

I love clicker training and do use it for various things but have always preferred just the treat by the leg approach to heel work, together with the 'back this way' method. As soon as the dog reaches the end of the lead or is too far if you're working loose or with a lunge line, you back up and call your dog to you for a reward. Coming to you and sticking with you gets a reward, getting ahead doesn't.

A lot of dogs respond well to a mix of freedom and structure. We're very good at expecting our animals to know what we want of them automatically, forgetting that we need to show them what we want first. It sounds like that bit of structure, in a fun way, is going to help you a lot.



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Re: Advise needed please

Post by FlipFlop on Wed Feb 22 2017, 14:39

Treated him to a proper police dog lead. Can't wait for it to arrive, will be good for heel work as left hand is free.

He did it again this morning but none of the jumping just the lead near my hands. My partner held him why I waked out of sight for a few minutes, he stopped but on return he had a little go with her but it's me who he really wants to do it with. hopefully he is learning this isn't good behaviour ?!

Going to change the routine, 20/30 minutes on the moors with the tennis ball and thrower before we do the lead walk, see if that helps burn of some of his excitement.
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Re: Advise needed please

Post by FlipFlop on Wed Feb 22 2017, 14:45

http://www.blackdogtrading.co.uk/product-info.php?pid298.html

This is the one I ordered. Be good for OH as she can have more control of Ronnie, as pulling to get to things sometimes.

Will have to change his walk when spring summer comes, where we go you have cricket tennis football and archery he is very prey driven so this doesn't help him re excited too
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Re: Advise needed please

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