Muzzling.

I've about had enough of my bitch Sally.Since she's been spayed she is terrible,wanting to fight with any dogs,regardless of size or numbers.She doesn't do any posing,growling or any of the usual signs of imminent action,she goes straight in,and means it.
Iv'e had dogs for 50 years but never one like this.I have to take her out around 6 am to avoid any dog walkers.I always have her on a lead but others have their dogs loose,and of course they come up to have a sniff and it kicks off and I get a load of abuse.
The final straw was last week when I was a little later going out.I was sat on a bench and there was a loose dog about 30 yards away.Unbeknown to me Sally chewed through the lead that was holding her to the bench I was resting on and she broke off and attacked the dog.
I instantly shouted at her to get off,which she did and came straight back to me.The attack couldn't have been more than 5 seconds but sounded really violent as she is really vocal in such a situation.I apologised profusely explaining it was an accident but the woman went over the top,ringing her husband,mother and daughter to come from their homes nearby and have a go at me.It was really embarrassing.We've not been that way since.
Anyway I'm thinking of muzzling her as I've tried everything else,even though she wouldn't be able to defend herself if attacked on the lead.Any suggestions?All the muzzles advertised for staffy's seem far too big.She only has a 3 inch long muzzle and 10 inch circumference measured according to their instructions.
It's such a pity as she loves people and used to play with any dog until she was spayed.

First off I would take her back to the vets, she sounds in pain still from the spray. How long has it been since shes been spayed? Nothing is without a reason so you need to look at the reasons. I wouldnt allow other dogs to come sniffing up if she feels that way, its down to you to make sure it doesnt happen. So long as Sally is on the lead, you have control over loose dogs, remember this. My Pixee does not like dogs coming up to her, so I always warn the owners, and those that are not bothered to look out for their dogs, know as I can be loud when I shout 'whoa' and tell them to take control of their dogs. What kind of lead are you using? Staffies are very vocal as we know.

I would invest in a strong chain lead if she is chewing through the one she has . Your dog has a good recall and thats one of the best tools u need if your dogs on the lead u need to shout at the owner to put their dog on the lead as they should anyway regardless what dog it is. Its the other owner being irresponsible not you i wouldnt muzzle your dog if your dog isnt the aggressor, lynn makes a valid point about the speying and would double check at the vet your dog has healed properly. Perhaps someone will be along with more suggestions

It's been over a year since she was spayed.Iv'e made up an unbreakable,unchewable lead for her now.I've got a 10 metre leash I can use when I'm in the fields and can see a good way round me for other dogs.
I know I'm in the right having her on lead around other dogs but it still doesn't stop the abuse from other owners who leave theirs loose.I'll just have to bite my tongue.
I'm hoping she may grow out of it,she's nearly 2 now.No-one could have taken as much trouble to socialize her as a pup,I let her meet and play with as many dogs as I could,she used to playbow and roll on her back in submission right up until the spay.
Strangely if she's out with my daughters dog,her own sister,she's not interested in other dogs at all.They can run up to her and she's completely indifferent to them.
I'm considering getting another as a companion for her.Do you think this would calm her down any or will I have to accept it's how she is as I know some are the same.

Could be thats she doesnt like a dog in her face and perhaps she sees this as a challenge have u thought of getting a specific toy just for the park as a distraction for her and only use this for the park. If your plans are for getring another dog i would do slow introductions first perhaps through a fence incase of any altercations i would also get a male dog as some same sex dogs don't get along though for many people isnt always the case

almost sounds like  fear reaction and i dont think a muzzel will help. your probably better fining someone with a dog that is willing to stick around at arms length. it usually lasts around 5 mins for the fear to turn into curiosity. at the moment she is conditioned into thinking her reactions removes the other dogs from the situation so in her mind its a winning formular. just sitting close enough to see each other but breaking the cycle of moving away and giving her the idea making all that fuss works could work wonders

I personally think a situation like this needs a good professional behaviourist/trainer to come and meet you and Sally, to assess if it is fear, pain, learned behaviour or (least likely) genuine aggression. They would be able to advise a course of action, i.e. training, and also look at the way you are reacting.

Ask around to see if you can find a word of mouth recommendation - maybe someone here can suggest if you let us know where you are - or failing that see if there is someone on the APBC website who is near you:

http://www.apbc.org.uk/

In the meantime, muzzling is probably a must. The Baskerville Ultra muzzle usually fits staffies well and they have quite small sizes. Make sure you don't get too small, though, as that would be uncomfortable and add another reason for Sally to be anxious.

If you can't find a trainer, this book will give you a positive and effective way of working:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Feisty-Fido-Help-Leash-Reactive-Dog/dp/1891767070/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1430377671&sr=8-1&keywords=feisty+fido

It's not a miracle cure but will give you a tried and tested method that you can start straight away, and you should see at least improvement fairly quickly.

We have this problem with Gordon, we take treats out and when an off lead dog approaches get him to sit and watch the treat (this seems to take the focus off the other dog) when the other dog passes we give the treat and loads of praise, owners who let their dogs run riot on the park make me so angry so I feel for you.

Well,it's a year on and still no change despite various advice from people who claim to know how to stop a dog being dog aggressive.The consensus of opinion is that's what she's like and I'll just have to accept it.I have had some success,to me anyway,by using a ruffwear webmaster harness.It is a virtually escape proof harness with a handle on the back that you can use to pick your dog up with.
When any dogs approach,before she has chance to psyche herself up for the encounter I just pick her off the ground by a few inches and we go past with her just hanging there like her mother picked her up when a puppy.She doesn't do anything,no attempt at being aggressive to the other dog at all.As soon as we're past I let her down again.Of course this only works with other dogs on a lead.
Not a cure of course but it's made it a lot less daunting taking her out and seems to amuse anyone seeing her being carried.Luckily she doesn't seem to be bothered about it.

some staffords are dog aggressive, it's part of their genetic makeup - many will disagree, but i believe it's true.

I know a lot of people are against muzzling, but if the dog is introduced to the muzzle properly there's no problem with using one, and it can reduce YOUR tension as well as stopping possible bite damage. Also, when other people see a muzzle they tend to avoid the muzzled dog & that would be of benefit.

have you thought about getting a dog vest which says "I need space" on it?

gillybrent wrote:some staffords are dog aggressive,  it's part of their genetic makeup - many will disagree,  but i believe it's true.

I know a lot of people are against muzzling,  but if the dog is introduced to the muzzle properly there's no problem with using one,  and it can reduce YOUR tension as well as stopping possible bite damage. Also,  when other people see a muzzle they tend to avoid the muzzled dog & that would be of benefit.

have you thought about getting a dog vest which says "I need space" on it?

I agree about muzzling and I think the 'I need space idea' is a good one too. I completely disagree with dogs being aggressive as part of their genetic makeup. Most 'aggressive' dogs aren't even actually aggressive but defensive. I think staffies are very sensitive and will react quickly but it is extremely rare to find a dog that is just straight aggressive without cause (that cause being in their eyes and not necessarily ours). To say that some staffies are born aggressive is to support BSL and all the evil that goes with it, and I would be sad to have that view supported here.

Although it's unconventional and probably not the way I'd vote to do it, I'm glad you've found a means of coping with the situation, sindento. Just one other thought reading back your initial post, one physical possibility might be adhesions, which is basically internal scarring following an op. It can be very uncomfortable/painful (I know, I had them!), and any pain can make a dog more reactive. It's possibly a bit of a shot in the dark but I thought I'd mention it. I had mine zapped by laparoscopy, zzzzp! Worth running past the vet?

LizP wrote: To say that some staffies are born aggressive is to support BSL and all the evil that goes with it, and I would be sad to have that view supported here.

absolutely not! i would never agree with that! in no way do i support BSL & do not support it in any way!

iam not saying that any dog is born human-aggressive, but to deny that dog aggression was bred into the stafford many years ago is just closing your eyes to the possibility. it does happen but it can be managed!

I'm not sure I agree with that either. I think staffies can often be more reactive, i.e. they react more quickly, but I totally believe that most of what is seen as 'aggression' is worry and a lack of early socialisation. I would argue that a large part of the reason that staffies can appear to be aggressive is that they are worriers and very sensitive, which leads to fear aggression (defense, not true aggression). You see it in a lot of dogs, not just staffies, but staffies are amongst the most sensitive of breeds. I'd also say that you see more example of barking/snapping from terriers, especially JRTs, but they aren't labelled 'aggressive'.

To even say that staffies can be born aggressive is to support the concept behind BSL, which is that it is breed not deed, nature not nurture. I fully appreciate that you don't support the fact of BSL but by agreeing that certain breeds are born you are, to my mind, agreeing with the concept behind it.

No, absolutely not.

we'll have to agree to disagree, because to my mind you are blinding yourself to the stafford's ancestry & confusing dog aggression with human aggression, which are two entirely different things.

I agree that MOST staffords, if trained, socialised & treated properly are great with other dogs, but decades of breeding fighting dogs has left SOME mark on SOME dogs. You can't just wish that trait away because of BSL. It doesn't suddenly leave their genes because a law has been passed.

as i say, i don't want to get into an argument over it, so maybe it's best left there.

Well there we agree, we will have to leave it there because I don't believe there can be a specific gene for dog aggression without other aggression. Call me blind if you like, but there it is.

Without meaning to add fuel to the fire.. I do think discussion/debate is great for learning providing it stays above board.. So, my interest is, whilst we are all aware of our breed's fighting heritage, is there any clarity or evidence to suggest that they were chosen for this purpose due to natural aggression towards other animals? Or were they chosen for specific characteristics, such as tenacity, drive and willingness to please? Which could result in humans being able to train them to fight, for reward from us, rather than a want to be aggressive or fight? As this is what I have always believed to be true... Of course aggression in other animals generally comes from predatory drive, for territorial reasons etc

I think muzzling your dog would make you a very responsible dog owner.

It's ok to say others should have their dogs under control, but lets face it whose dog has 100 percent recall?? If an unsuspecting puppy runs up to your dog then it will get it. I know that I would have no qualms muzzling my dog if I had to.

The dog training centre I go to advise you to muzzle your dog if your dog is this way and I agree. They also do an antisocial training evening which is briliiant and helps people to resocialise their dogs.

You will find that you will relax and enjoy your walks so much more, and maybe only use the muzzle on park walks and not on street walks.

Please make sure you get a basket muzzle as they can pant properly in the heat. Good Luck

Rachel33 wrote:Without meaning to add fuel to the fire.. I do think discussion/debate is great for learning providing it stays above board.. So, my interest is, whilst we are all aware of our breed's fighting heritage, is there any clarity or evidence to suggest that they were chosen for this purpose due to natural aggression towards other animals? Or were they chosen for specific characteristics, such as tenacity, drive and willingness to please? Which could result in humans being able to train them to fight, for reward from us, rather than a want to be aggressive or fight? As this is what I have always believed to be true... Of course aggression in other animals generally comes from predatory drive, for territorial reasons etc

I honestly don't think that 'willingness to please' would be enough to make a dog fight to the death.

They chose dogs which were 'game' to breed from, but those dogs also had to live in the family home which was mainly a two up, two down miner's terraced house, with a large family consisting of mum, dad & several children of all ages. Gameness consisted of a willingness to fight, of course, but also tenacity, high pain threshold and agility. It's abhorrent, of course, but that's the history of the breed, and it's difficult to deny that.

I also mentioned tenacity and drive.. Not just willingness to please! Would these characteristics not result in the breed giving 110%, whatever the task? Not only that, but I doubt that many breeds when put into a ring with an attacking dog would back down and not protect themselves. Many animals will fight to the death for a multitude of reasons - very few of those reasons, if any, are simply "to fight", I feel that in saying that it is hugely over simplifying this behaviour. I don't feel that Liz is denying their heritage, but recognises that simply being used for a task does not automatically mean that the dogs are inherently aggressive, but that they have characteristics (sensitivity, quick to react etc) that fit the profile required to potentially create a dog that could be aggressive.

Rachel33 wrote: but that they have characteristics (sensitivity, quick to react etc) that fit the profile required to potentially create a dog that could be aggressive.

This, or rather required to potentially create a dog that could learn to fight other dogs. Most fighting dogs are trained to fight. Yes, they have the traits needed to make 'a good fighting dog' but they are also trained, hence those poor bait dogs.

I'd also add one other point, which is that even in the rescue centre many of the dogs (of all breeds) with poor dog social skills can learn to be calmer and even to get on with some other dogs, and quite quickly too in many cases. That includes staffies & crosses. That's something that I can't see would happen without more time than the staff and volunteers have if there were basic building blocks for dog aggression.

Sorry, I was supposed to be leaving this, wasn't I?

Rachel33 wrote:I also mentioned tenacity and drive.. Not just willingness to please! Would these characteristics not result in the breed giving 110%, whatever the task?

I doubt it - not to the extent that the fighting fraternity would require!

Rachel33 wrote:I also mentioned tenacity and drive.. Not just willingness to please! Not only that, but I doubt that many breeds when put into a ring with an attacking dog would back down and not protect themselves.

Protect themselves, yes, but they also need to be willing to keep going and attack time and time again. Don't forget that each dog is given a 'turn' to attack first - if they are just defending themselves they will lose the fight because they won't 'come up to scratch', ie the 'scratch' line in front of the other dog.

LizP wrote:
This, or rather required to potentially create a dog that could learn to fight other dogs. Most fighting dogs are trained to fight. Yes, they have the traits needed to make 'a good fighting dog' but they are also trained, hence those poor bait dogs.

see above - it isn't just a matter of being able to fight.

LizP wrote:
I'd also add one other point, which is that even in the rescue centre many of the dogs (of all breeds) with poor dog social skills can learn to be calmer and even to get on with some other dogs, and quite quickly too in many cases. That includes staffies & crosses. That's something that I can't see would happen without more time than the staff and volunteers have if there were basic building blocks for dog aggression.

I think you've misunderstood me. I'm not saying that every stafford still has that drive to fight, that innate dog aggressiveness, but it is present in a few.

LizP wrote:

Sorry, I was supposed to be leaving this, wasn't I?

same here, but i think it's an important issue.

Ok, I think we need to draw a line under this now.

Whether you believe that some tiny number of dogs might have a gene that makes them dog aggressive or not, the vast, vast majority of what is seen as dog aggression is not fixed in stone from birth.

All dog reactivity should be dealt with responsably through the use of leads and, where appropriate, muzzling after training, as initial situation management, and should then look into appropriate positive method training. No one should just assume that their dog is aggressive and therefore skip the training.

Anyone who is interested in looking into dog reactivity further, there are some fantastic trainers and behaviourists out there with years of experience and research behind them - Patricia McConnell and Grisha Stewart are two of my favourites. Their books and other work will help you understand this complex issue more.