"Harsh" training methods, thoughts pls

Hello,

I took my rescue Staffie (8yr old bitch) to a new training class last night, mainly regarding her dog aggression.

The trainer was very direct / abrupt to me & extremely firm with my dog & I truly felt like leaving in the first few minutes BUT for the fact that he had surprising results VERY quickly & had her participating in next to no time (this has NEVER been possible before as she's too dog reactive.)  

I took her to the park today & stayed for 3hrs & there was considerable improvement, but I worry it's too firm, almost yanking & insisting she goes "down" & I feel unsure. He's recommended a slip rope lead & initially seemed to yank her a bit   . The trainer feels I am "a weak pack leader" who therefore causes this problem for my dog. We love her to bits & thought I was firm & consistent with clear boundaries but he said she felt anxious with other dogs & was warning them off & defending herself because I'm so weak, she couldn't respect me or look to me & didn't feel safe (certainly didn't mince his words!!)

I wonder if owners have had any experience of very firm alpha pack leader training with Staffies vs alternative styles.

Thank you in advance (hope it goes without saying - just in case - absolutely no smacking, hitting, kicking etc is implied when I say firm BUT some pushing, yanking on lead )

Hiya! I'm in my phone so can't post a long reply, but I urge you to do some more research into pack theory. Alpha techniques have been thoroughly debunked due to lacking evidence and the fact that they are just plain cruel.

My dog (a nervous/aggressive/reactive ex breeding bitch) has never been trained with these methods, yet astounds me daily with her progress. If it doesn't feel right, it usually isn't. My motto is "be a leader, not a boss." Your dog should respond to your commands because she trusts you as her leader, not because she's scared of you (yanking, forcing commands etc is fear inducing punishment) and is not something that I would do with my dog. Check out our "golden rules of training" sticky at the top of this section for more guidance.

I don't like the sound of this at all, I feel a lot of the time the results from this type of training is from fear which I feel can only end in one way. Alpha pack theory has long since been discredited they're dogs not wolves. I wouldn't subject Darcy (who can also be reactive at times) to it.

I have only used positive reinforcement training and it's worked fine for us   

Rachel33 wrote:Hiya! I'm in my phone so can't post a long reply, but I urge you to do some more research into pack theory. Alpha techniques have been thoroughly debunked due to lacking evidence and the fact that they are just plain cruel.

My dog (a nervous/aggressive/reactive ex breeding bitch) has never been trained with these methods, yet astounds me daily with her progress. If it doesn't feel right, it usually isn't. My motto is "be a leader, not a boss." Your dog should respond to your commands because she trusts you as her leader, not because she's scared of you (yanking, forcing commands etc is fear inducing punishment) and is not something that I would do with my dog. Check out our "golden rules of training" sticky at the top of this section for more guidance.

I completly agree. Positive reinforcement is a much better method.

Can only echo the above - positive reinforcements, consistency, being persistent and patience

I totally agree. Roxie is dog aggressive but I have established it is fear aggression. I am a lot calmer now and just gently walk her away from on-coming dogs, talking calmly all the time. She has responded well to this. I soon learnt that by my being nervous she picked up on this and reacted even more. It is a long, and sometimes, slow learning process but kind consistency and a build up of trust works wonders.

I believe in positive reinforcement but think dogs also need boundaries as well and need to know what Not to do. And dog needs a leader to feel safe and be a dog but I don't like The fear methods as well if it didn't feel right to you good chance it wasn't right. And it sounds like this trainer is trying to be dominant on you as well.. But it's up to you opinions about it vary hugely try to read more about it and see where you stand I'm off to get some abuse from my vets myself..

Awww I think you've confirmed what deep down I felt :-( She's such a good girl in other aspects but a total pain with other dogs.

The problem I have is that he managed more in 5 minutes than I've managed in 2 yrs with her :-( (we got her aged 6)

Our neighbours have a horrible dog who throws itself at the fence, pees through the fence & barks manically everytime I try to let her out in the garden. Our garden is now COMPLETELY out of bounds - they'd be through the fence if I let them, she injured herself trying to respond & she won't even go for a wee when he's there - too busy trying to see him off  :-( it's a HUGE problem as she's SO reactive & I was so hopeful this man might have the final answer.

Have you tried a one to one behaviourist of a different training style? Which area are you in lovey?

I could do Nuneaton, Coventry maybe even Leicestershire area. This trainer has brilliant reviews but as you say I worry it gets result through fear / dominance.
Honestly, shouldv'e known she'd be a handful with all that fantastic Staffie personality, if I wanted an easy life should have considered a hamster ;-) Just desperately want to improve things FOR HER so she can enjoy the garden, walks , maybe even be able to let her off the lead!!!!!

Do you have a training line? It will give her the opportunity to run around on walks but gives you more confidence/control   I've had Daisy nearly two years and have always used one, just getting the point now to let her off it occassionally  

Oresteia wrote:Awww I think you've confirmed what deep down I felt :-( She's such a good girl in other aspects but a total pain with other dogs.

The problem I have is that he managed more in 5 minutes than I've managed in 2 yrs with her :-( (we got her aged 6)

Our neighbours have a horrible dog who throws itself at the fence, pees through the fence & barks manically everytime I try to let her out in the garden. Our garden is now COMPLETELY out of bounds - they'd be through the fence if I let them, she injured herself trying to respond & she won't even go for a wee when he's there - too busy trying to see him off  :-( it's a HUGE problem as she's SO reactive & I was so hopeful this man might have the final answer.

Are you able to reinforce the fence anyway ? You shouldn't have to avoid your garden because of some dim wit next door to you. That is unacceptable   

I love the "dimwit"  description, makes me feel a little better thank you     

We've done all the fencing, but once dimwit (that'll now stick) gets going - which is anytime after they let him out about 8am & he can then bark at his own shadow till his heart's content for the rest of the day (only if it's dry weather)  

Initially she ignored it (we moved house here about a yr ago) but now she damages her paws, pads, chin, scrapping at the fence & concrete posts to get to him & it's made her (already existing) dog aggression SOOOoo much worse. It also winds her up on the way to her wlak as we have to come down the shared fence to get out so she's already dog aggressive before we start.

I literally look forward to a rainy day as she may be able to go for a wee in our own garden :-(

You see, this forceful trainer promises to solve this situation very quickly which you can see is pretty blumin appealing, but I HATE the idea of pushing her down & yanking her about, she's such a good girl in other ways & was a rescue so she's always had good treatment here.

Nick Jones is apparently incredible.. though may be pricey. But if you can afford/get to see him i'd highly recommend.
http://www.alphadogbehaviour.co.uk/

All sounds very stressful for all involved.. do the owners next door just leave their dog out all day? I'd probably call the dog warden personally.. you should be able to let your dog out in the garden!!

The thing is with these methods, is that yes you might scare your dog sh*tless initially to get her to comply, but then ultimately one day she's either going to shut down or bite back, depending on her personality. Aggression breeds aggression, it doesn't cure it. Not only that, but forcing her down when she's already in a heightened state?! Is he an idiot? That's a fast track for redirection, then the dog will probably be put to sleep for being "dominant"   the mind boggles!

Hello,

Big thanks for the suggestions. Have e-mailed Nick Jones - no prices on his website so we'll  see what he comes back with, (eek) Do you have any ideas what he may charge for his 2 home visit consultation service ?

Like you say it's pretty stressful   so if he could help it may be worth it.

I have no idea, sorry! I use a good behaviourist who charges £125 for a home visit.. But that also includes an in depth training plan plus unlimited free advice via phone/email.

EEeeeek it's £950 + travelling costs    Trainer sounds FAB but at that price we'll have to pass.

We'll keep chugging along, we love her to bits so we'll get there.

Holy cow! That is actually insane.. Can't believe anybody could even morally charge that much! I'll have a look around for another, otherwise may have a lady that you can call for some over the phone advice..

http://www.devondogbehaviour.co.uk/about-ruth-owen.html

Hey! Send this lady an email and see if she has any recommendations for your area. Explain to her about the current behaviourist making you yank your dog and push them down onto the floor and explain your worries.

I know Ruth personally and volunteered for her for a long time, lovely lady and knows bull breeds better than anybody that I know. Worth a shot! She's always willing to help, especially staffies!

Email the IMDT

http://www.imdt.uk.com/

they should have an trainer in your area. All trainers are assessed and use modern techniques, no outdated "dominance" training.

Oresteia wrote:EEeeeek it's £950 + travelling costs

What!? I wouldn't pay that for Jesus Christ himself to come round, even if he brought treats.

When Bosie was very young I contacted an allegedly great behaviourist because Bosie was crazy on his lead. He jumped and zig-zagged and pulled like a train. All the guy did was tell me some blatantly obvious training tips and advise that I use a canny collar, which I didn't want to do. The solution was down to me and was pretty simple. I bought a harness and just walked and whenever Bosie pulled ahead I'd stop. If he lagged behind I'd pull him along. I never said a word to him or give him treats and now he walks right there at my side like a show dog. OK, it took four months but it saved me a wad.