Help!

Ok so Alfie was on my lap, my 3yr daughter sitting next to us. She was stroking him and then he lunged and grabbed her hand!! No damage and said it didn't hurt but it was definitely a warning. I saw it happen and immediately said NO and pushed him onto the floor and put him on his bed. There was no sound, though I was watching him as he was licking his lips. I have noticed he does this with her even though she is not all over him, he can look uncomfortable with her. He never sits on her lap as he does my 10yr old son or hubby and me and she is not as into him so she doesn't ever bother him. She was very quietly and nicely stroking him. It's worried me now, as she did nothing wrong

Oh sue what a worry although your daughter was behaving perfectly do you think the situation could've made Alfie uncomfortable? Do you think he's scared of her? Or has he's got an ouchie? Or perhaps his previous owners child wasn't nice to him and he's struggling to be calm around her?

It could be that Alfie is in pain where she was stroking him ??

Hmmm! Is she quite quiet or a bit wild generally?!

Oh I'm not sure, a bit strange. Could he have felt a bit enclosed?

i would get the two interacting more together of course under very close supervision .chester always used to look uncomfortable around my now 11 year old son but it was alot to do with they didnt spend any time together or do repetative things together i have an 18 month old grandaughter and whenever she is over we go for a walk with the dogs as this is a great bonding exercise! teaching a child how to behave around a dog is as important as teaching the dog how they should behave around a child! is your dog protective of you maybe see your daughter as a threat ? im obviously no expert on this subject so would if i were u be very vigile on dogs body language and maybe visit your vet! hope all goes well 

_Hayley_ wrote:Oh sue what a worry :(although your daughter was behaving perfectly do you think the situation could've made Alfie uncomfortable? Do you think he's scared of her? Or has he's got an ouchie? Or perhaps his previous owners child wasn't nice to him and he's struggling to be calm around her?

Hayley previous owners had a 4yr old boy (we never saw) He used to ride him like a horse and "Alfie loved it" Yeah right. I have been aware he seems slightly wary of her.

Kathy wrote:It could be that Alfie is in pain where she was stroking him ??

I am 99% sure he is not in any pain. I was stroking him fine before that and this evening he has been on my husbands and sons laps being stroked

Rachel33 wrote:Hmmm! Is she quite quiet or a bit wild generally?!

Rachel she is very good with him and not shouty around him, however of course she is a child so is noisy at times in play as is my son. Wouldn't describe her as wild at all though.

Sazzle wrote:Oh I'm not sure, a bit strange. Could he have felt a bit enclosed?

Saz I don't think so, she wasn't leaning over him, sat back in the sofa. She was beside us but there was a gap and she was just stroking him.

willowthewisp wrote:i would get the two interacting more together of course under very close supervision .chester always used to look uncomfortable around my now 11 year old son but it was alot to do with they didnt spend any time together or do repetative things together i have an 18 month old grandaughter and whenever she is over we go for a walk with the dogs as this is a great bonding exercise! teaching a child how to behave around a dog is as important as teaching the dog how they should behave around a child! is your dog protective of you maybe see your daughter as a threat ? im obviously no expert on this subject so would if i were u be very vigile on dogs body language and maybe visit your vet! hope all goes well 

Thanks willow. I got her to feed him tonight, have done this before but not for a while or regularly. She does come on dog walks but as he finds that stressful unfortunately I cant use it for bonding.
Although she does like Alfie, she is not really over fussed if that's the right way to explain it. My friends granddaughter is all over their dog, big cuddles with a death like grip, pulling it around, wont leave alone etc. My daughter is not that way at all, she would rather play with her toys than the dog. When she does she just gives him gentle strokes.
As I say I have been watching (Only had 4 mths and wouldn't trust any dog/child 100%) and noticed if she was stroking him he licks his lips and looks uncomfortable. However I don't want her to have to never touch him. Maybe I should get her more involved in training, like Sit and giving a treat?
Its so scary as I have seen him go for dogs with no sound of warning first.

I'll have a chat with my friend who has a rescue terrier and two little ones, I only ask because I'm sure she mentioned something about noise sensitivity and her dog becoming stressed and getting snappy and noticing a correlation between the two. Biscuit has warning bitten my dad before when I was fostering her; I could see her getting still and tongue flicking and didn't react quick enough as didn't know what her signs were there, he was stood up stroking her and I think it worried her. Really difficult one though! X

Thanks Rach! I just cant see that she was doing anything to upset him. She was quiet, just calmly saying how lovely he was and stroking him nicely. It was only for a few minutes too.

I know that many people here do not agree with some of my theories (developed purely through my own experience of Stafford ownership with a Family) but I am going to offer a view anyway.

Two of my previous Staffords were more, aggressive is definitely the wrong word) forceful and less obedient with my youngest Son. I put this down to the Dogs believing that (and here's the controversial bit) he was below them in the Family hierarchy.

We addressed this by getting my youngest more involved in feeding and training including time outs etc. Obviously all under supervision and with one of us re-inforcing whatever instruction my youngest gave to the dog if necessary.

We even played out scenarios where my youngest was "in charge" of the Family and we all done whatever he said for a period.

The dogs seemed to gain a new respect for him and the issues all disappeared quite quickly. Worked for us (twice) so if all else fails it might be worth a go. Can't see that it would cause any harm.

So you've only had him 4 months? Sounds like he may have developed a problem with younger kids because of the previous owners child riding him and god knows what else.

What do I think? I personally would tell your daughter to give Alfie A LOT of space. I know you said that she doesn't really smother him and it doesn't sound like she is but I think even the stroking by her is a bit too much for him at the moment. I honestly would let him be the one to initiate contact with her.

When we got Marquez about 2.5 months ago, he was extremely weary of our 10 year old daughter. He had absolutely no problems with adults but little people, he really wasn't comfortable at all. For my daughter who was getting over the loss of our last dog and who has grown up with dogs her whole life and been around them, this was very hard for her but she understood his past background (living in outdoor kennels with other dogs and only people she saw were adult men who let him out/exercise) and that it was obvious children and young kids like her were totally new. While we encouraged her to feed him, do basic commands with treats, etc with him to gain her trust we asked that she just leave him be and let him approach her and investigate at his pace. There were lots of sitting on the floor with both us so he could investigate us (really her) those first few weeks. She would basically ignore him and just let him sniff around her. She'd stick out her hand to let him smell and offer him treats. We'd do this at every opportunity we could which was in the morning before school, as soon as she got home from school and a few times in between before bed. It took 3 weeks but he finally got to point where he would start coming up to her without fear or apprehension and by that 4th week, he was all over her like they had always been together.

I know your daughter is a lot younger than mine, so you'll really need to watch her and try to explain as best as you can but I think given time, they will be fine together but it just might take a bit of time.

Thank you Tony & Diane. Last night I got her to give him his dinner and today his breakfast, she asked him to sit first ( I was right beside her). Also when she came in from nursery today she gave him a treat. Think I will carry on with this for a bit then get her involved with training sessions of sit, down etc.
I have gone back over the importance of leaving him alone, especially if no else is in the room (I got to go wee at times ) he usually follows me anyway. She does understand this and to be honest she is just not that into dogs! Strange I know. When we go to friends houses with dogs, she is not really interested in them, its me that cant wait to make a fuss of them! She does like them just slightly indifferent? Its quite nice in a way that I don't have to worry about her rushing at a dog trying to cuddle it, unlike some I know   
Not that its any excuse for him, but I have realised we haven't been concentrating on positive interactions between them, apart from the odd treat. Will definitely be upping this.
It has scared me, its such a worry. Looking at him now snoring snuggled up to me, its hard to believe.

What are your thoughts about the fact he gave no growl warning or got down and move himself away if not happy?

Think you have it just about right Sue with the feeding, training and treats. As we know, dogs learn best by reward.

As for the no warning, I don't think you will get to the bottom of that one as there didn't seem to be any trigger.
It does seem as though it was just a snap warning a bit like puppies do to each other, no real malice just a "get off me".

I also think that the no warning snap was a "get away from me" thing.... It seems to me he didn't want to be annoyed and just gave a her a little warning like Ian mentioned.

I agree with Ian and Dianne also may have been told off in the previous home for growling at the child when being harassed, so has learnt to skip the growl. Or perhaps the child ignored the growl before and the warning snap proved to be useful for him to get his space xx

Oh thanks guys, I do hope so! Was worried it could be more sinister with no warning. He didn't mark her and she didn't even cry (thought she may have even in shock) and he obviously could have if he wanted to or maybe because I was right there and immediately stopped it. it shook me up more because I knew what he could have done to her Will keep close eye on things and keep you updated.
Many thanks don't know what I'd do without the support on here.

Try not to worry sweet, just keep an eye on them and if it was to happen again, might be worth getting the trainer back in. I always get a second opinion, sometimes it's just good to have another set of eyes on behaviour, my friend Jess is usually my go to! She practises Ttouch and swears by it for anxious dogs; http://www.amazon.co.uk/Getting-Touch-Your-Dog-Performance/dp/1872119417 this book's really helpful if you'd be interested in it. If he finds it calming, when he gradually gets to a point where they are interacting again maybe she could do some ear circles on him to make it a really nice experience. I'm starting it with Biscuit now, will keep you updated!

flowerbud wrote:Thanks Rach! I just cant see that she was doing anything to upset him. She was quiet, just calmly saying how lovely he was and stroking him nicely. It was only for a few minutes too.

If like you said she is really nice around him i can't see it being her intentionally to be honest however there could anything from an energy she is projecting like excitement not actually showing sign like jumping around but feeling it and projecting it, it could be a scent she has, it could something as simple as these things, I would involve her allot more in daily routines,hand feeding/training, calm situations only nothing like play time or like you said he stress's at walks so don't include her in those things.
Something like a piece of her clothing near his sleeping area.
Personally though i wouldn't allow dogs on my lap any animal really that follow submissive and dominant behaviours like canines.

Oh Sue I am not much help hun but all good advice above. Yes I think the interaction with your little girl and Alfie will help such as treating him and feeding him. Hope all will be ok hun xxx

Amelia, you don't let any dogs at all sit on your lap?! :O

its good dogs follows u round! my 2 are stuck to me like glue which when i have my grandaughter over is handy as where ever i am they are 2! i wouldnt leave your daughter and dog together alone at all! my 11 year old son is also not allowed to get down on the floor around chester or willow which i have observed many a time with children they seem to like to get down on the same level as the dog and even a playful dog can hurt accidentially! do you ever do a health check on your dog ie looking in ears checking for lumps teeth etc just to make sure your dog doesnt have any health issues? what do u mean walks are stressful?

Rachel33 wrote:Try not to worry sweet, just keep an eye on them and if it was to happen again, might be worth getting the trainer back in. I always get a second opinion, sometimes it's just good to have another set of eyes on behaviour, my friend Jess is usually my go to! She practises Ttouch and swears by it for anxious dogs; http://www.amazon.co.uk/Getting-Touch-Your-Dog-Performance/dp/1872119417 this book's really helpful if you'd be interested in it. If he finds it calming, when he gradually gets to a point where they are interacting again maybe she could do some ear circles on him to make it a really nice experience. I'm starting it with Biscuit now, will keep you updated!

Rachel I will have a look it, I was going to ask you how you were getting on with the TTouch.

Amelie wrote:

flowerbud wrote:Thanks Rach! I just cant see that she was doing anything to upset him. She was quiet, just calmly saying how lovely he was and stroking him nicely. It was only for a few minutes too.

If like you said she is really nice around him i can't see it being her intentionally to be honest however there could anything from an energy she is projecting like excitement not actually showing sign like jumping around but feeling it and projecting it, it could be a scent she has, it could something as simple as these things, I would involve her allot more in daily routines,hand feeding/training, calm situations only nothing like play time or like you said he stress's at walks so don't include her in those things.
Something like a piece of her clothing near his sleeping area.
Personally though i wouldn't allow dogs on my lap any animal really that follow submissive and dominant behaviours like canines.

No I thought play time, which is him chasing and returning balls in the garden, may be too excitable at the moment, but maybe in a couple of weeks time if all well. Although she has thrown the odd ball for him now and then before.
I did consider the clothing smell, but wasn't sure if he might resent her smell near his bed? I could try it near the spot where he likes to lay in the sun, especially when we go out.

Inez Maria wrote:Oh Sue I am not much help hun but all good advice above. Yes I think the interaction with your little girl and Alfie will help such as treating him and feeding him. Hope all will be ok hun xxx

Thanks Inez xx

willowthewisp wrote:its good dogs follows u round! my 2 are stuck to me like glue which when i have my grandaughter over is handy as where ever i am they are 2! i wouldnt leave your daughter and dog together alone at all! my 11 year old son is also not allowed to  get down on the floor around chester or willow which i have observed  many a time with children they seem to like to get down on the same level as the dog and even a playful dog can hurt accidentially! do you ever do a health check on your dog ie looking in ears checking for lumps teeth  etc just to make sure your dog doesnt have any health issues? what do u mean walks are stressful?

Hi Willow, yes my 10 yr old is good with him but Im always watchful and try to keep any play calm. I looked him over after yesterday and again today, but he seems absolutely fine. With the walking he is on alert the whole time, especially for other dogs. He was hardly walked by his previous owners so is nervy of being out although he cant wait to go. He pulls a lot too. Its like he has blinkers on and cannot see or hear you as he has to be "ready" for anything that might come along. However we have made small progresses with this. There is more about him in rehab section here.
https://staffy-bull-terrier.niceboard.com/t52196-alfie-s-rehab-journey

Possibly just enjoying his cuddle time with "Mum" and did not want to be distracted/disturbed.

do u use a halti on walks chester has a "dogmatic" which i dont leave the house without (its also attached to his collar for extra safety) try taking him to lots of different enviroments chester is a nightmare if we see other dogs but hes getting better all the time and each time we dont have an "incident" (pulling squealing etc) i praise him up big time and its slowly sinking in with him ive had him since a puppy and hell be 3 in oct but im on guard on each walk like eg the other week a cat came out of nowhere and he pulled me onto one knee!! praising up any small good behaviour is really important when i walk dogs and grandaughter my 11 year comes to! the pulling on walks needs to be addressed for your safety also ive tried allsorts and the best ive come up with so far is my leather dogmatic and repetative "heel" and i always say his name first works after first 10 mins on walk! some dogs are harder work than others and i think u have some work ahead of you, but my dog always gives in before i do!!

I tried a Dogmatic (which were lovely) but unfortunately Alfie was between sizes, one too big, one too small. He has a Halti now which does help as it stops the strength of his pull. I always praise any good or relaxed behaviour and use distraction when possible.

did u try a leather dogmatic? chester is a staffyxamerican bulldog so is a funny size but i emailed my dogs measurements to dogmatic and they were really helpful also as his dogmatic is leather i was able to put extra holes in collar part so it does up tighter (i did use a belt holer that we had) but having an attachment to collar with halti or dogmatic is essential as the little buggers can get out of them if they try hard enough! distraction ive found not much help with chester what seems to work best is to completely ignore that another dog is coming walk as norm then when we clear of other dog tell chester what a super dog he is! (i make his lead as short as poss and keep him close to my body and slow down alittle as they can end up tripping u over but i do it all naturally and without fuss) coming back from a stress free walk feels really good youll get there it just might take a while!!  

Didn't use a leather one but did email them and they were very helpful. He was between a size 1 & 2 as he has quite a small face. His Halti has a safety connecter to the collar, which has been put to the test I use a double ended lead too though. I do try and carry on as normal past dogs, sometimes I can sort of pull him on, sometimes he will crouch down low and not want to move or he can be desperately trying to get to it. I long for stress free walks again. He has had such a change of life though, hopefully we will get there.

yes that is small chesters is a size 4! halitis are a really good invention and defo help! i know exactly how u feel on walks though if ive had a really bad walk and it seems everyone has decided to walk their dog at the same time as me i think the next dog we come across im going to make chester sit and wait until they have gone past but they seem to have the same idea u cant win!your not alone in all your issues its one step forward one step back!! but chester the older he gets the better he is becoming (thank the lord)! in fact i seem to have more incidents with other owners and their out of control dogs a terrier type (horrible visious looking dog) that the owner had let off lead attacked chester the other week i put my leg between them and it bit my welly she didnt even say sorry and i had to scream at her to put her dog on lead! dont become defeated be assertive! (my spelling when im on here seems to go out the window sorry)

Yes the other owners have a lot to answer for too! Thanks willow.

Rachel33 wrote:Amelia, you don't let any dogs at all sit on your lap?! :O

no i don't, on the sofa next to me, their head on my leg maybe but not complete on me no.

Oh okay, do you feel that them being fully on your lap, as opposed to their head on your lap makes a difference in regards to dominant/submissive behaviours?

chester tries to sit on my lap all the time but he is just too big to be a lap dog! i think you should do what feels right for you and your family and some dogs are that little bit to pushy to allow on couch bed lap etc! always be aware at the end of the day they are an animal with instincts that go back many moons and its what u feel comfortable with that matters!