help needed please

Hi all merry Christmas
The help I need is with Marley , i have a bought a border collie to help move my livestock around.
The puppy is 13 weeks and very good for his age ,now all was good for i was very careful how how I introduced them and made sure since the collie was 8 weeks old marley has had regular contact at a neutral venue.
On Sunday I brought the puppy home all was good , then for reasons I can't understand last night Marley tried to rip the puppy's face off,there was no food about the puppy had just come in from a wee break.

I had to take the puppy to the vets to get his face stitched up,luckily he is a fisty little chap and seams to be ok.

He is being kept apart from marley .

If i can't sort this problem out with a very heavy heart marley will have to live elsewhere,i need a working dog.
I really don't think it's fair for marley to be muzzled most of the of the time.

Anybody have any ideas ?

Gaz

i would keep them apart and try again never leave them alone ever if this has happen are they both the same sex?

Hi Steve
Both male , Marley has been castrated .

Gaz

Both males that be the problem   you should of got an female

Let the pup get better before trying putting again

He is from a line of champion sheep dogs i had to wait a fair while to get him.
Didn't get a choice on sex.

Gaz

never leave them together alone,try introducing them again slowly with both of them on their leads,also try taking them out for a walk together on lead thou,take it slowly thou .

Oh dear has he ever had a problem with other dogs before?

Yes he's not very good with other dogs thus the month of introducing them together,he was brought up with a collie.
I have only had marley about 9 month and he is hit and miss with other dogs but very submissive to me.

Gaz

Ah okay, makes more sense now! Is he fearfully aggressive with dogs or does he just have a general dislike?

So sorry to hear this Gaz. Poor little pup, I hope he heals well.

I can't offer any worthwhile advice I'm afraid, except to say that if Marley is a bit iffy with other dogs, the sight of the puppy coming in from his wee break may have triggered a jealous streak in Marley.

Obviously keep them apart, at least for now, and do let us know how you get on.

Rachel, he mainly rushes up too other dogs quick sniff then lots of woofing and biting,his reaction is over the top for the situation, he is very insecure so I have made sure he is reassured and is not left out.

gaz

Ahh typical terrier, rush in first and think later! Sounds like he is moving forward to gain information and then gets uncomfortable and reacts. So you say they met on neutral ground and there were no problems? And then he reacted when it was on his territory? And I your pup is going to be a worker will he be indoors or outdoors? And how old is Marley now? Sorry for all the questions!

Marley was 3 in may ,my puppy will be working and sleep indoors they both have crates marley loves his ,puppy(freddy) is just getting use to his.
I had expected issues with marley thus the long introduction ,they played fine ,Marley was a little rough with a puppy which i expected and got himself wound up but calmed down after 5 mins apart .
Then the attack on freddy came out of the blue,he knew he had done wrong and sulked in his crate most of the day.

Gaz

marleyANDgaz wrote:He is from a line of champion sheep dogs i had to wait a fair while to get him.
Didn't get a choice on sex.

Gaz

    i know we differnet but i wouldn't done this i would of waited for a female

Gaz, you have done everything by the book and beyond to get these two dogs acclimatised to each other before Freddy moved in.

How has Marley been with Freddy since his outburst of jealous rage? And dare I ask if Marley has been neutered?

As Lynda has said, it sounds like you've done everything right with the introduction. May be a gender thing. Other than the huge change with the puppy, had much else changed for Marley over xmas? More vistors, people drinking alchohol, different routine? If he's already an underconfident dog, any change is bound to result in adverse behaviours as I'm sure you've already considered.. Does he have any dog companions that he can safely mix with without problems, or does he not have contact with other dogs at all?

Marley had the snip shortly after we got him

Marley walks out with a muzzle on ,not a basket type,this one let's him drink and pant he just can't bite.
He meets other people and dogs when we go out ,he has always been aggressive to other dogs except my dad's collie who is about the same age.
The house as been fairly quiet this incident occurred with just the 3 of us at home.

As for now when Marley is free to roam he shows very little interest in freddy ,he walks up to his crate sniffs him and mooches off no aggression no woofing pretty apathetic really.

Freddy goes mad woofing wanting to play

Steve,this isn't me bragging but a good sheep dog cost a lot of money a fully trained one will cost as much as a small car ,these aren't pets they are a tool like a 4x4 or quad bike used to do a job,and they command the same price and you can claim for them on your tax return.
I grew up on a farm the only dogs allowed inside were old/retired or sick the working dogs slept outside together.
As I am big softy freddy will be both and no doubt treated like marley.

Gaz

Sounds like the same muzzle as Biscuit wears, the baskerville ultra ones! When he has bitten dogs before (other than the pup) has it been a full blown grab and rag or more of a quick warning bite? Is your dads collie male or female? And how did you introduce them? Are they often in the house together?

Biscuit isn't good with other dogs, her disposition is generally fear based but also fiery terrier though she was used as a breeding bitch by a BYB before she came to me and does have a very strong maternal instinct with a fondness of most puppies. I found that when she only had negative interactions with random dogs running up to and hounding her on walks she was awful with any dog brought into the house. I now safely mix her with 4 other dogs on a regular basis, muzzled inititally, and since she has had some positive meetings with calm, easy dogs she will allow them into the house with minimal problems, but will still flare up at unknown dogs out walking. Though, i'm very lucky that she isn't a biter, she's pinned dogs and nipped but never carried out more than a level two bite. Sounds like the techniques that I used with Biscuit wouldn't be of much use to you?

http://www.naturaldogblog.com/blog/2007/09/dog-training-how-to-introduce-your-dog-to-another-dog-in-ten-easy-steps/

http://www.cesarsway.com/dog-care/senior-dog/Introducing-Puppy-to-Older-Dogs

Marley is full on pin out kaboom your dead attack,this and farts that could clear the Albert Hall are his only bad points.
My dad's dog is a male ,my dad got marley out of my 4x4 and just walked into the house with him ,my dad's dog is very submissive he will snap but not very often.

Gaz

Ah.. that certainly makes things more complicated   Unfortunately, sometimes if it's in them, it's in them! I could have a chat with the behaviourist that I work with and see if she has any suggestions? She has successfully integrated many breeds; including staffs, ambulls, mastiffs, shar peis and various mixes with varying levels of aggression. She lives with a pack of 8 bull breeds, 2 of which were due to be pts for severely attacking other dogs. Other than that, I don't really know how else we could help Sounds like you know his behaviour and can read him well.. Just hate to think of another staff, especially one with problems, up for rehoming. Especially when it sounds like he has a very lovely set up with you.

Thanks Rachel I would be very grateful if you could.

Just got back from a walk with marley and he is going nowhere I will just have to make it work,it would break my heart and his if I re home him.
He is my best mate,naughty,stinky,disobedient,very licky but my best mate.

Gaz

Hey Gaz, how are you guys getting on?

Puppy has gone back

Gaz

 I'm sorry to hear it didn't work out, but also glad you kept Marley xx

So sorry gaz, pleased you and Marley won't be seperated

Was just about to send training plan! Sorry to hear that xx

I am SO sorry to hear that Gaz.

Of course being staffie-lovers we are glad to hear that you are keeping Marley, but you'll still need a sheepdog won't you? Maybe Rachel's training plan could still come in useful.

You are feeling gutted at the moment I can imagine, but do please keep in touch and let us know how you are getting on.