Advice would be welcome

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Post by rob hammond Mon Jul 08 2013, 12:19

As well as having 2 SBT'S of my own, I look after 2 other dogs for a niece who has a long term illness.
Leela, an SBT seems to be frightened of everything !! She is nervous of all strange dogs, she shakes like a leaf, but at the same time growls barks and jumps. I know this is nervous aggresion, but she does it for ALL animals, even objects EG a leaf falling off a tree or a shopping trolley pulled by a person ! She is a little under 3 years old, and I know for a fact she has never been mistreated, but I am sure she has had zero socialization. She is good with my 2 dogs as she has known them since birth, and good with the German pointer she shares a house with.
So far I take her out to a place were there will be dogs, at a time were there are not too many. She loves to play fetch so I always take a few tennis balls with me, and I use them both for play, and as a distraction technic when offlead dogs approach her, or when coming across another animal on the way to the park. If she reacts, I correct her vocally or with a "Cesar Milan style touch" She has made small improvements, but can easily lapse as it is not always possible for me to see every problem quickly enough.
I find it impossible to find other dog owners locally who are prepaired to let me walk with them because of her nervousness, apart from one woman (she had 2 JR's and a mastiff) offlead, who told me I should let her offlead and let her be beaten up (prettying up the words here) so that she would learn, to which I told the woman that she shouldn't own dogs with that attitude ! (yep add lots of expletives there too !)
Sooo... I would welcome any more tips and technics or links that would help me with this lovely natured dog (she is very soft and loving even more than the average SBT).
So far the work I have done with her has helped a little and I do understand that it is a slow process, but if she does end up in a fight most people will not understand and will just think " oh its another one of those Devil dogs. I do not want to see her, or any other dog harmed and I do not want her to get into a situation were she may be taken away.
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Post by Maria90 Mon Jul 08 2013, 13:01

Im sorry to hear that Leela is like this, she sounds like an amazing girl. But I really have no experience with this, hopefully someone should be along shortly who can advise Smile
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Post by Annie and Maxi Tue Jul 09 2013, 22:01

When being around other dogs you need to find where her threshold is and don't push her any closed than that. You want to find that distance where she is relaxed and reward that (play or treats). It's hard to control what other dogs do but you need to set her up to succeed and reward that as much as possible. When you see a dog (when she sees it) you can use a command a such as "dog" or "who's that?" And quickly put a treat in her mouth to change her association. This still needs to be on a distance where she feels comfortable and relaxed otherwise you'll just reward her anxiety. Gradually you should be able to move closer and closer but it takes time and you always have to watch her signals. If she shows any stress signals (shaking, licking lips etc) you're too close, if she's not reacting on that stress reward her by moving away to a distance she's comfortable with!
Hope that makes sense Smile
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Post by Guest Tue Jul 09 2013, 23:19

I'm so sorry to hear that your niece has a long-term illness - it must be a great comfort to her that you can take her dogs out.

Poor little Leela, it must be horrible for her to be even afraid of a leaf falling off a tree, and I am glad you are trying to help her.

I'm sorry that I don't know a lot about Cesar Milan's methods - can you tell me what a "Cesar Milan style touch" actually is?

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Post by rob hammond Mon Jul 15 2013, 10:34

@ Annie, thank you yes I can make sense of what you are saying. Leela will not accept any type of food or treat when outside, which is why I use the tennis balls. There is no real comfort zone, as soon as she sees a dog that can start her off, eg, on the other side of the road from 800 yards away !, and yet she has been okay with dogs within a foot of her if she has something else to occupy her EG tennis balls. I make sure I do not comfort her so that I do not encourage her behaviour, until she has settled. To give you some idea of her nervousness, if I put my hand on her, but she hasn't seen it, she will jump in fright. If I didn't know better I would see this as evidence of abuse, but this is not the case with her. Thanks for the tips I will incorperate them into what I am already doing with her. I will also try to give her as much new situations as she can handle. I have taken her out a couple of times with Poppy, and I see an improvement, as she often takes the lead from her, but am a little cautious as I understand that Poppy could also enter a protective mode, thus re-enforcing Leela's nervousness. I guess I should carry on as she seems to be improving little by little.
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Post by rob hammond Mon Jul 15 2013, 10:44

@ Lynda... Hi thank you for your concerns, when I refer to Cesar Milans touch I mean that he uses a claw like touch with his hand on the dog sometimes on the side other times on the back leg.. This is to simulate a pack leader correcting a pack dog with a nip. It is not hitting the dog, but just a touch that focuses the dogs attention on the leader and away from their unwanted behaviour. It works very well as long as you watch the dog and do the touch before the dog has "zoned in" too much, so like Anna says, correcting the dog by observing the body language that leads to the adverse reaction , and preventing them from fixating, EG the first thing Leela does it stiffen, followed by the tail between the legs , then growling, followed by shaking barking and jumping. If I touch her within the first 2 (have to be quick as all these reactions can happen within half a second!), this re-focuses her attention on me, she looks at me, and I keep eye contact with her thus preventing the adverse reaction... hope this explains it !
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Post by Guest Mon Jul 15 2013, 21:01

Thank you for the explanation Rob. I might try that myself on Kuchar - he gets "fixated" when he sees another dog and nothing distracts him. He "only wants to play" as the saying goes, but it means I can't trust him off-lead as his recall goes to zero when he sees a dog he wants to play with.

I do admire you for doing all you can for Leela. Do let us know how you progress with getting Leela to overcome her nervousness.

Vibes coming ~~~~~~ don't be scared Leela! Advice would be welcome 3198918699 

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Post by Annie and Maxi Mon Jul 15 2013, 23:16

Alright yeah that makes things a little harder. When she sees a dog lets say 800 yards away and reacts, if you leave the lead loose and not move, will she eventually relax and look away from the dog? If she does I would reward when she looks away from the dog and is relaxed and then walk away
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Post by Guest Tue Jul 16 2013, 01:09

Hi
I had a simular problem with Blue. He was nervous around other dogs. If Leela likes treats in your home but won't take them when you see another dog it means that she is out of her comfort zone. She won't ever eat them unless she feels safe. This is a sign that the distance needs to be more.
Do you have a role model dog who is calm and more confident who you can attach her too?
Another technique that I found that worked was to have Blue on one side of a mesh fence with a dog on the other side. This allowed Blue to feel safe as they couldn't get to him and start by interacting without any risk. Do you have any local trainers who can provide plenty of different dogs in a simular safe enviroment?

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Post by rob hammond Wed Jul 17 2013, 09:25

@ Annie... thanks excellent tip, I will try that, although it is Leela that tightens the lead not me lol. As I mentioned before she can be ok sometimes, and I have not managed to recognise the differences between the different situations yet.
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Post by rob hammond Wed Jul 17 2013, 09:51

@ Mike, thanks for your reply... Yes my Dog Poppy is calm and not nervous and this sometimes works for me, BUT Poppy is Leela's mother which may complicate matters a little, as occasionally she may get protective, but I'm pretty sure this is my fault for not seeing the signs and correcting fast enough on some occasions.
Trainers are out of the question as I am unemployed, but what I do is there is a local park used by dog walking services and I sometimes follow them round at a comfortable distance for Leela.
Going back to the using another dog, I should clarify things a little . Poppy (my dog ) is Leela's mother and also Amy's (my other dog). Leela belongs to a relation of mine. Amy was nervous (not to the extent of Leela) and I used Poppy as a "good example" , allowing her to meet dogs whilst I made sure Amy didn't get too close until she had seen friendly interaction from her mum. This worked well for Amy who is now much better with other dogs, but hasn't had the same success rate as with Leela.
To complicate matters further, Leela has had little training apart from the basic sit stay etc, so I am also working on her walking to heel, rather than pulling (as I believe this helps towards non aggression) as well as a few other commands. I use a head collar (halti) on the way out to a walk to stop the pulling, and also because it can be used as a muzzle when the lead is pulled upwards. During or after play I take it off, as she is much better at staying to heel, and also because it is my intention to wean her off of this type of collar. Thank you again for your advice I will take it all on board and incorporate it into her current training. More is always welcome ! :p
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Post by rob hammond Wed Jul 17 2013, 10:06

@ Lynda, yes of course I will give you a progress report ... lol... as and when there is any ! She does improve a little every day (with the occasional set back). I am also blessed/hampered by the fact I have 2 dogs and look after 2 more... giving each dog at least 2 hours a day exercise is not an easy task, although I can walk my Poppy (profile pic) with any of them, but that still makes 6 hours a day... a full time (if very enjoyable) job. I would like to see them all interact and play with other dogs, but at a minimum I am looking to at least have no aggressive (nervous)tendencies from Lella. Amy has come a long way (but not perfect) so I know I will get there with patience and the wonderful help, advice and encouragement I get here !
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Post by rob hammond Thu Jul 18 2013, 15:24

Yesterday I took Leela out twice, once early morning, then again at about 8:30pm. Rather than play ball with her I walked her around (in the shade), following other dog walkers and I did not get anyproblems. I walked her to a stream to let her cool off and drink, and one lady followed who had 2 terriers off lead, both dogs were passive and 1 came down into the stream with Leela, stood beside her and drank with her... no adverse reactions at all !!! (although neither dogs did the meet and greet thing). I then took her to another section of the park and we sat down in the shade for an hour letting people ,children and dogs walk past in close proximity. The whole time Leela needed no correcting vocally or physically , and when I sat down she laid down and happily chewed a ball. Not once was there any sign of distress from her, and she explored lots (doesnt usually) even had a poo... which she never usually does till she gets home (although that may have been necessity rather than a sign of relaxation (?)).
So this has been her best day yet even though I know it will not be all roses from now on, it shows that she / I am heading in the right direction. Thanks again guys for all the tips and advice !
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Post by Kathy Thu Jul 18 2013, 15:53

Well done Rob, sounds like Leela is making some progress with you, I'm sure your neice will be very proud of her too.
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