Cesar Millan - Leader of the pack

Did anyone watch this last night?

I hadn't seen any of his stuff before just seen some of the posts on here so thought I would see what it was all about

The concept of the show is a 'problem' overlooked rescue dog goes out to Millan's pad in Spain! then three 'families' work with the dog to see how they react and handle it. The best 'leader of the pack' gets to rescue the dog. While I'm not overly comfortable with the concept and some of the correction methods the fact that its showing that not all rescue dogs have to be problem dogs and that not all dogs are right for certain people is quite interesting viewing.

Last nights dog was toy obsessed (As Ledger is with the ball) so I tried the 'TSSST' sound today to get him to release and my god it worked he immediately stopped jumping and sat down the big test will be at agility tonight if I can stop him going for the handle of the lead (he has chewed through two as comfort so is on a chain while we wait for our go)

Anyway I think its next week that they have a staffy and something was mentioned about them being overlooked in rescue centres due to media so I will wait and see how it does all come across.

this is a hot topic and you will find that not many people here like or follow him at all due to his cruel methods.

Saying 'tsst' is all well and good, but it's the other methods that people hate/dislike/disagree with him for. It's a controversial topic on here

I did n't realise he had a new show out - I do not like him or his methods, but do watch his shows to make people aware of how not to do things.

What channel, day and time is it on?

I have seen his shows, although not this new one, and yes I'd agree that some of his methods are less then desirable. But, surely the result is the main thing. I am not just refering to whether or not the dog becomes trianed, walks to heel, stops chasing bikes. But also that if the dog is happy, which we'd all agree is the main thing. Surely the rest, within reason, is minor.
I remember seeing one of the dogs on his show being terrified of bike and cars. He with his methods, like them or not, turned a nervous scared dog into a happy outgoing one.
I do not like all his methods but bottom line is, they work and the dogs are happy or appear to be. Id rather someone employ his methods, then the owner give up and get rid of the dog.??? No?

Richardspencer wrote:I have seen his shows, although not this new one, and yes I'd agree that some of his methods are less then desirable. But, surely the result is the main thing. I am not just refering to whether or not the dog becomes trianed, walks to heel, stops chasing bikes. But also that if the dog is happy, which we'd all agree is the main thing. Surely the rest, within reason, is minor.
I remember seeing one of the dogs on his show being terrified of bike and cars. He with his methods, like them or not, turned a nervous scared dog into a happy outgoing one.
I do not like all his methods but bottom line is, they work and the dogs are happy or appear to be. Id rather someone employ his methods, then the owner give up and get rid of the dog.??? No?

no the result is not the only thing

I would not want my boys to behave lovely but be utterly terrified of me.

He's a cruel man who should not be on telly to show how NOT to train your dog

Are his dog terrified of him???

thats what I am saying the result is not the only thing. All dog si have seen on his programs that I have watched appear to be happy not terrified at the end of it.

Richardspencer wrote:I have seen his shows, although not this new one, and yes I'd agree that some of his methods are less then desirable. But, surely the result is the main thing. I am not just refering to whether or not the dog becomes trianed, walks to heel, stops chasing bikes. But also that if the dog is happy, which we'd all agree is the main thing. Surely the rest, within reason, is minor.
I remember seeing one of the dogs on his show being terrified of bike and cars. He with his methods, like them or not, turned a nervous scared dog into a happy outgoing one.
I do not like all his methods but bottom line is, they work and the dogs are happy or appear to be. Id rather someone employ his methods, then the owner give up and get rid of the dog.??? No?

The result isn't the main thing, because you can beat a dog into submission, but it's not a good way to do things. As for happy, that's debatable. I saw part of his show where a dog was terrified of being on the boat with her owner, and he helped her with it, by the end of the episode she and her owner were much calmer, happier, etc., so that's good. But he didn't use any bad training methods for that. The ones where he does use harsh training methods, you'll notice the dogs acting submissive. There's nothing wrong with a submissive dog, but they're acting overly-submissive because of how bossy he's being. You don't need to be so bossy or harsh or intimidating or confrontational to let a dog know you want it to listen to you and do what you say.

Tara wrote:

Richardspencer wrote:I have seen his shows, although not this new one, and yes I'd agree that some of his methods are less then desirable. But, surely the result is the main thing. I am not just refering to whether or not the dog becomes trianed, walks to heel, stops chasing bikes. But also that if the dog is happy, which we'd all agree is the main thing. Surely the rest, within reason, is minor.
I remember seeing one of the dogs on his show being terrified of bike and cars. He with his methods, like them or not, turned a nervous scared dog into a happy outgoing one.
I do not like all his methods but bottom line is, they work and the dogs are happy or appear to be. Id rather someone employ his methods, then the owner give up and get rid of the dog.??? No?

The result isn't the main thing, because you can beat a dog into submission, but it's not a good way to do things. As for happy, that's debatable. I saw part of his show where a dog was terrified of being on the boat with her owner, and he helped her with it, by the end of the episode she and her owner were much calmer, happier, etc., so that's good. But he didn't use any bad training methods for that. The ones where he does use harsh training methods, you'll notice the dogs acting submissive. There's nothing wrong with a submissive dog, but they're acting overly-submissive because of how bossy he's being. You don't need to be so bossy or harsh or intimidating or confrontational to let a dog know you want it to listen to you and do what you say.

I agree. I know your not suggesting he beats his dogs to submission because obviously thats not a good thing. Maybe I have not seen enough of him. I have never seen him be harsh or so overly intimidating that I have thought he was doing wrong to the dog. I'll say again, just incase I get lynched. I do not agree with all of his methods even the ones that I have see that I didn't think were overly harsh. Just want to clarify again when I say the result is the main thing. By result I mean a dog that has 'rectified' its issue but is happy. I have not seen any of his shows that have resulted in an overly submissive dog. They all seem to do as they are told and are rewarded for it with a 'wagy tail'
I would be interested to watch when he is next on tv (if anyone could let me know that would be good). Maybe I have not seen the show you guys have. I only ever saw a handfull of eppisode from his first couple of series in america.

rescuestaffords wrote:I did n't realise he had a new show out - I do not like him or his methods, but do watch his shows to make people aware of how not to do things.

What channel, day and time is it on?

Nat Geo Wild - Tuesday 8pm and just checked next week is a Staffy

I couldn't believe it when he kicked the dog (tap with the sole of his foot but I still class it as a kick) to correct it but I did like it when one of the contestants kinda proved him wrong when she chose how to to introduce her dogs she was still learning a few techniques but knew her dogs best. As I say this was the first time I have seen him in action and I don't agree with some of his methods but on the flip side he kinda fascinates me as I am meant to be starting a dog behaviour and psychology course and opted for an extra module on training techniques (positive and negative) so will keep watching if only to know what not to do

There was also a programme about him last night so I sky+ I wonder if he will cover any of the controversial methods that he uses? Will let you know if I get chance to watch it.

Richardspencer wrote:

Tara wrote:

Richardspencer wrote:I have seen his shows, although not this new one, and yes I'd agree that some of his methods are less then desirable. But, surely the result is the main thing. I am not just refering to whether or not the dog becomes trianed, walks to heel, stops chasing bikes. But also that if the dog is happy, which we'd all agree is the main thing. Surely the rest, within reason, is minor.
I remember seeing one of the dogs on his show being terrified of bike and cars. He with his methods, like them or not, turned a nervous scared dog into a happy outgoing one.
I do not like all his methods but bottom line is, they work and the dogs are happy or appear to be. Id rather someone employ his methods, then the owner give up and get rid of the dog.??? No?

The result isn't the main thing, because you can beat a dog into submission, but it's not a good way to do things. As for happy, that's debatable. I saw part of his show where a dog was terrified of being on the boat with her owner, and he helped her with it, by the end of the episode she and her owner were much calmer, happier, etc., so that's good. But he didn't use any bad training methods for that. The ones where he does use harsh training methods, you'll notice the dogs acting submissive. There's nothing wrong with a submissive dog, but they're acting overly-submissive because of how bossy he's being. You don't need to be so bossy or harsh or intimidating or confrontational to let a dog know you want it to listen to you and do what you say.

I agree. I know your not suggesting he beats his dogs to submission because obviously thats not a good thing. Maybe I have not seen enough of him. I have never seen him be harsh or so overly intimidating that I have thought he was doing wrong to the dog. I'll say again, just incase I get lynched. I do not agree with all of his methods even the ones that I have see that I didn't think were overly harsh. Just want to clarify again when I say the result is the main thing. By result I mean a dog that has 'rectified' its issue but is happy. I have not seen any of his shows that have resulted in an overly submissive dog. They all seem to do as they are told and are rewarded for it with a 'wagy tail'
I would be interested to watch when he is next on tv (if anyone could let me know that would be good). Maybe I have not seen the show you guys have. I only ever saw a handfull of eppisode from his first couple of series in america.

Well, you wouldn't see the worst parts on TV, would you? It can be edited out. But there have been clips of him kicking dogs (not always with much force, but sometimes with enough force to move the dog), using shock collars, choking a dog that's being aggressive to the point where the dog's mouth goes blue, etc. So yeah, those ones I'd say are harsh and completely unnecessary, and result in dogs that are overly-submissive, acting that way out of fear. I understand what you're saying though.

Richardspencer wrote:Are his dog terrified of him???

yes they are, as are alot of the dogs he's 'worked' on. Alot of them are PTS after as there behaviour drastically gets worse.

He's also strangled dogs to the point of them going blue, so yer great trainer....

I saw the advert but didn't watch it. I think the show is quite obviously heavily edited to look appealing to the viewer. To me there is def something behind the scenes.

Also when the dogs behaviour is easily fixed, like excessive barking or toy obssessive he's fairly ok with his methods because they aren't too extreme. But if you see any episodes of him dealing with powerful aggressive dogs he always uses force, which would most likely solve the problem immediately for a very short time then get much much after.

I have watched some of the things he has done and thought if he did it on Logan he would respond very badly.

Richardspencer wrote:I have seen his shows, although not this new one, and yes I'd agree that some of his methods are less then desirable. But, surely the result is the main thing. I am not just refering to whether or not the dog becomes trianed, walks to heel, stops chasing bikes. But also that if the dog is happy, which we'd all agree is the main thing.

There have been several dogs that have been terrified after he's 'trained' them - one that particularly comes to mind is that of a black GSD that wouldn't stop chasing its owner's cat. Towards the end of the show CM walked the dog into a room where the owner was sitting with the cat. Every time the dog so much as looked at the cat CM pressed the button on the dog's shock collar. By the end, every time the dog saw the cat he was shaking, cowering & peeing himself with fear.

Is that result acceptable to you? I mean, the dog no longer chased the cat, so the result is the main thing?

He's a c0ck! if this were my dog he'd be sh*@#ing teeth for a week

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8fceK-i8pQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player

stig wrote:He's a c0ck! if this were my dog he'd be sh*@#ing teeth for a week

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8fceK-i8pQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player

And if that angered you you wont want to watch this one, in fact do, cos she bites him in defence

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiSS97ve2Iw&feature=youtube_gdata_player

why do people still let him near their dogs?

Yes, I saw that one a while back - he was always going to get bitten by Holly!

stig wrote:And if that angered you you wont want to watch this one, in fact do, cos she bites him in defence

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiSS97ve2Iw&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I even think there'd be a chance my Logan would bite back if someone punched him like that.

People must get sick of this topic coming up I personally love him and his shows and people can say he's cruel bla bla bla, but will still stick by my opinion of that I think he's great :-)

Char, I know you like him & can't see any wrong, but surely you can see that the punching, kicking, ecollars etc are bad?

bullsmommy1 wrote:People must get sick of this topic coming up I personally love him and his shows and people can say he's cruel bla bla bla, but will still stick by my opinion of that I think he's great :-)

Did you watch that second video I posted? where he is quite blatantly provoking that poor dog to bite him? using his body language to intimidate and scare her and then beating her when she defends herself?

Seeing him in action on the internet has discouraged me from buying any of his books or taking any advice from him whatsoever, the more we discuss this topic the more people see him for what he really is, nobody likes a bully.

to be fair he isnt the worst and "some of his methods" work, BUT and a very big "but" there is a reason for the disclaimer thats always bellowed before his show. if you go back to his old stuff you see his use with prong collers on dobes etc which im 100% against.
despite what you read his own dogs always look calm and as a pack they are always well behaved. none of them shy away from him in a submissive way but thats prob because he has had time to work with them rather than to a tv schedual where a get results fast is the order of the day.
the guy was sleeping rough under road bridges and walking dogs before the tv found him, one has to wonder how much the tv companies are to blame for his get a quick result in methods that are aired.
he obv loves dogs as after his suicide attempt he said it was the dogs that brought him through, so I do not thing he is a brute he is made out to be.
I was once told that to train a dog it should want to do anything to see a favourable look on your face and that kindness and trust formed a bond to get them to work hard for you. the most hard hitting bit was when he said you know you have done good by your dogs when they will defend you to the end rather than running off deaf to your screams. a metaphore but something that has always stayed with me.

stig wrote:

bullsmommy1 wrote:People must get sick of this topic coming up I personally love him and his shows and people can say he's cruel bla bla bla, but will still stick by my opinion of that I think he's great :-)

Did you watch that second video I posted? where he is quite blatantly provoking that poor dog to bite him? using his body language to intimidate and scare her and then beating her when she defends herself?

Seeing him in action on the internet has discouraged me from buying any of his books or taking any advice from him whatsoever, the more we discuss this topic the more people see him for what he really is, nobody likes a bully.

Actually I do like a bully haha and wouldn't it be boring If we all liked the same things. I don't like the things some people on here do with there dogs but I don't say it's cruel even though in my eyes it is, won't name pick, I understand some of you think he's evil and all that. But that's your opinions he has a lot of fans aswell as critics

bullsmommy1 wrote:

stig wrote:

bullsmommy1 wrote:People must get sick of this topic coming up I personally love him and his shows and people can say he's cruel bla bla bla, but will still stick by my opinion of that I think he's great :-)

Did you watch that second video I posted? where he is quite blatantly provoking that poor dog to bite him? using his body language to intimidate and scare her and then beating her when she defends herself?

Seeing him in action on the internet has discouraged me from buying any of his books or taking any advice from him whatsoever, the more we discuss this topic the more people see him for what he really is, nobody likes a bully.

Actually I do like a bully haha and wouldn't it be boring If we all liked the same things. I don't like the things some people on here do with there dogs but I don't say it's cruel even though in my eyes it is, won't name pick, I understand some of you think he's evil and all that. But that's your opinions he has a lot of fans aswell as critics

i still don't understand how you can think some one who punches, kicks, strangles and uses ecollars as not cruel and why you want to ever ever use his methods on your dog

and yet you think what some members on here are cruel to their dogs? really doesn't add up

I have used his methods on my dog he now doesn't need a muzzle and will calmly walk past other dogs and not react, so is my dog mistreated, feel free to find a photo or a video of him looking frightened or unhappy, I like cesar because HIS methods helped with the problems my dog had, both of my dogs actually.

bullsmommy1 wrote:I have used his methods on my dog he now doesn't need a muzzle and will calmly walk past other dogs and not react, so is my dog mistreated, feel free to find a photo or a video of him looking frightened or unhappy, I like cesar because HIS methods helped with the problems my dog had, both of my dogs actually.

yer and i've done the same with Chance WITHOUT needing to resort to his methods and by using positive methods only.

You still didn't answer my question either

Do I think there right, well no of course not, however I haven't seen him strangling a dog, or punch them and as for E collars every owner has a choice there not illegal as car as I'm aware, and Ella I'm sure our doing great with chance but I used his methods and its not effected my dog, that's what I'm saying. I can't dislike a guy for something I simply haven't witnessed.

bullsmommy1 wrote:Do I think there right, well no of course not, however I haven't seen him strangling a dog, or punch them and as for E collars every owner has a choice there not illegal as car as I'm aware, and Ella I'm sure our doing great with chance but I used his methods and its not effected my dog, that's what I'm saying. I can't dislike a guy for something I simply haven't witnessed.

you've missed many many threads on here and youtube clips, have a google you'll find them

Look at the clips posted in this thread, never in a million years would i use physical techniques on any of my dogs regardless of what their problem is, frankly there is just no need.

ella wrote:

bullsmommy1 wrote:I have used his methods on my dog he now doesn't need a muzzle and will calmly walk past other dogs and not react, so is my dog mistreated, feel free to find a photo or a video of him looking frightened or unhappy, I like cesar because HIS methods helped with the problems my dog had, both of my dogs actually.

yer and i've done the same with Chance WITHOUT needing to resort to his methods and by using positive methods only.

You still didn't answer my question either

I accept your opinion and am not in any way trying to force mine onto you, bullsmommy, but I would like to point out that I believe there are other methods to achieve a calmer, more obedient dog. There are many methods - Cesar Milan's method is just one of them, but I personally believe it is one of the less effective in as much that it uses fear training and places the dog under stress and possibly even pain.

As Ella just said, she didn't use those methods with Chance, and yet he's pretty much as close to a miracle as anybody could have wished for(sorry to use you as an example Ella )! I challenge anybody to try and get those sorts of results with a fearful dog by using Cesar's method!

But of course, just my own opinion. You're right - he does have fans as well as people who dislike him. To each their own.

Eleanor wrote:

ella wrote:

bullsmommy1 wrote:I have used his methods on my dog he now doesn't need a muzzle and will calmly walk past other dogs and not react, so is my dog mistreated, feel free to find a photo or a video of him looking frightened or unhappy, I like cesar because HIS methods helped with the problems my dog had, both of my dogs actually.

yer and i've done the same with Chance WITHOUT needing to resort to his methods and by using positive methods only.

You still didn't answer my question either

I accept your opinion and am not in any way trying to force mine onto you, bullsmommy, but I would like to point out that I believe there are other methods to achieve a calmer, more obedient dog. There are many methods - Cesar Milan's method is just one of them, but I personally believe it is one of the less effective in as much that it uses fear training and places the dog under stress and possibly even pain.

As Ella just said, she didn't use those methods with Chance, and yet he's pretty much as close to a miracle as anybody could have wished for(sorry to use you as an example Ella )! I challenge anybody to try and get those sorts of results with a fearful dog by using Cesar's method!

But of course, just my own opinion. You're right - he does have fans as well as people who dislike him. To each their own.

thats ok i'll let you

Char i'm certainly not trying to argue, but tv can certainly make the most vile people look like saints should that be there aim, what they don't show is how often the dog's he's 'trained' relapse massively or just get worse and have to be PTS as they became so fearful of x,y,z

That's great for Ella it really is, but I don't have a fearful dog. He was an aggressive dog, now he isn't, and I said its because of cesar that he's not. I didn't use force on him, I wouldn't harm him. but as you said we each have our own opinion, and as for the threads I didn't miss them. I read them I just didn't comment to be hounded on why we shouldn't like him, I will google him. And them in a few months we can have this debate again when his name is mentioned, however in the mean time I have a dog to walk.

bullsmommy1 wrote:That's great for Ella it really is, but I don't have a fearful dog. He was an aggressive dog, now he isn't, and I said its because of cesar that he's not. I didn't use force on him, I wouldn't harm him. but as you said we each have our own opinion, and as for the threads I didn't miss them. I read them I just didn't comment to be hounded on why we shouldn't like him, I will google him. And them in a few months we can have this debate again when his name is mentioned, however in the mean time I have a dog to walk.

Chance is/was fearful which meant he was massively aggressive but to people, so the same as bully in terms off aggression...

Some of his methods are controversial, like the 'touches', but he really does understand dogs, their behaviour and body language etc.

You can still learn a lot watching his shows IMO, but obviously you don't have to use or agree with all of his methods.

EDIT:

Seen that video before, but not with the text explaining the body language of the dog. I am surprised he still behaved in the way he did and expressed 'I never saw that one coming' after the dog bit him. I find that strange considering the explanation the video gives in regards to the warnings and him being an 'expert'. Hmmm...maybe he really does understand them and provoked it to bite to make good TV.

I don't think it was done on purpose for good TV, I think it's just his way to be confrontational with dominant dogs, and he didn't see it coming because...I don't know, he thought the dog would back down or something. Not all dogs can be intimidated into submission though.

I find it strange as a behaviour expert that he did not see all the signs that the video demonstrated, such as the lowering of the head, licking of nose etc etc.

I do enjoy the shows though and there is still a lot people can learn.

You have to be careful with all the dog experts on here who know so much lol

I wasn't referring to anyone here. Just curious as to how Cesar, an expert did not pick up on the body language that was outlined in the video and if he did pick up on it, then he must of seen the bite coming?

Gee wrote:I wasn't referring to anyone here. Just curious as to how Cesar, an expert did not pick up on the body language that was outlined in the video and if he did pick up on it, then he must of seen the bite coming?

He did pick up on the body language, he just didn't expect the dog to bite him rather than back down, and I suppose he didn't see that coming because not all dogs react how you expect them to.

I don't think anyone on here claims to be an expert. I certainly am not, I can do the very basics in dog training and that's all I am concerned with. I have had a very aggressive dog in the past and fearful rescue dogs, though I have never had to punch one of them.

I have enjoyed episodes of the show I'm not gonna lie, however it is very obviously edited.

If anyone watches that 2nd video stig/dave posted and agrees with it I think it's pretty mindblowing tbh.

bullsmommy1 wrote:You have to be careful with all the dog experts on here who know so much lol

just like you should be careful copying a so called expert who gets bit regularly and can't see to understand dog body language.

Pot calling kettle black much

Tara wrote:

Gee wrote:I wasn't referring to anyone here. Just curious as to how Cesar, an expert did not pick up on the body language that was outlined in the video and if he did pick up on it, then he must of seen the bite coming?

He did pick up on the body language, he just didn't expect the dog to bite him rather than back down, and I suppose he didn't see that coming because not all dogs react how you expect them to.

What else did he expect it to do?

He often says a dog will, avoid, fight or flight. The dog tried to avoid him but he kept coming forward. He cornered the dog so it wasn't going anywhere, only thing left is to fight?

Gee wrote:

Tara wrote:

Gee wrote:I wasn't referring to anyone here. Just curious as to how Cesar, an expert did not pick up on the body language that was outlined in the video and if he did pick up on it, then he must of seen the bite coming?

He did pick up on the body language, he just didn't expect the dog to bite him rather than back down, and I suppose he didn't see that coming because not all dogs react how you expect them to.

What else did he expect it to do?

He often says a dog will, avoid, fight or flight. The dog tried to avoid him but he kept coming forward. He cornered the dog so it wasn't going anywhere, only thing left is to fight?

I assumed he was expecting the dog to give up and bow to his superiority.

Well guess he thought wrong

bullsmommy1 wrote:You have to be careful with all the dog experts on here who know so much lol

So, you're getting catty now? There's really no need to. Nobody on this forum calls themselves (or even thinks of themselves as) an expert.

However, we all have the wellbeing of dogs at heart & can see that punching/kicking/shocking dogs is wrong.

I may have copied his techniques but atleast it worked! I'm happy with my result! Catty I'm simply saying in my opinion he's the expert non of yous are, true statement that isn't being nasty or whatever, you don't have to like him it's all done to personal choice but I do. Simple

bullsmommy1 wrote:I may have copied his techniques but atleast it worked! I'm happy with my result! Catty I'm simply saying in my opinion he's the expert non of yous are, true statement that isn't being nasty or whatever, you don't have to like him it's all done to personal choice but I do. Simple

He's an expert? I'm sorry, but what qualifications does he have? And don't say 'experience', his experience is of dominating and overpowering dogs. I'm talking about proper qualifications in animal training/behaviour.

Thanks Jshrew for posting about this programme. I don't have National Geographic but I will def try and watch the next one if there is a Staffy on it. And if tsssst works for you, thanks for passing that on too. I will try this tomorrow. I am quite happy to borrow tips that work from CM, doesn't mean that I have to love every inch of him or boycott every single one of his methods.

It's a shame - in the 80s we used to have Barbara Woodhouse and One Man And His Dog on tv, sort of prime time - you couldn't really imagine that now. I didn't have dogs at the time and both shows bored me rigid. Of course, now (with hindsight, and dog) I appreciate what those programmes were for.

I would like to see a Barbara Woodhouse/Cesar Milan face off. I see that the title of her best selling book was called No Bad Dog. Good title.