Should I feed grain free??

Archie has had a skin issue from the day we picked him up from the breeder. There were a few spots mostly on his forehead and around ears. Initially I thought it’s from puppy play. He also had a balder spot on his temple. Not completely bald but balder then the other side. I was feeding him leaps and bounds kibble and can food as that’s what the breeder had him on. He was having too many stools a day, around ten and the were very soft almost watery. He was not gaining any weight. He was 2.6kg when I picked him up at 8 weeks and 2.2kg (according to breeder) at 6 weeks. He is 16 weeks now and weighs at 8.5kg. Had a look at the ingredients and quickly learned that it’s not the best food. Consulted the vet and she suggested I put him on royal canin puppy medium breed. Stools were perfect and only after meals as soon as he was fully transitioned. Vet also suggested that his skin problems might be from that as well. They did scrapes, all clear. Negative for ringworm. Up to date with with everything. He gets flaky looking spots, sometimes bumps and when it dries up his fur falls of. It went from the top of his head all the way to his tail along his back and on the sides of his body. Some on legs and armpits. Vet suggested a medicated shampoo twice a week, which we have been doing for two weeks. She said to be patient as it takes time to take effect. She said it also might be an underdeveloped immune system and he will grow out of it. If all fails, she said to try him on grain free and see how that goes. I have been mixing in sardines in his kibble which he loves. Have also started giving him coconut oil and organic yogurt in the last couple of days. Went to the pet shop to get more toys . The lovely ladies there suggested that grain free food is a much better option and they think his skin would clear up on it. Another thing I should mention is that Archie was a swimmer pup. Breeder told me he is fine but was diagnosed by a specialist a few days after we picked him up. He is all good now. However we worry about hip dysphasia.  What does everyone think? I’ll try and post pictures of his bald spots. If he can stay still enough for me to take some I should mention that his mum is white and father is blue. No blue to blue breeding according to their pedigree papers.
Any thoughts or advice would be highly appreciated.
Thanks for reading

I’m thinking if I should have posted this in the health issues section??

It's fine here Jess as I think it could be a diet related issue. Typical of a vet to suggest royal canin!! Nothing wrong with it other than price but they do suggest it for any problem!! Grain really isn't much good for our dogs, it's put in as a filler! I have Katy on grain free & she hasn't any problems with it & only poo's twice a day.

Thank you for your reply Jen. I’ve heard that vets like recommending royal canin . I’ve got a third of a small bag left of it so might get grain free and starts transitioning him tomorrow. Fingers crossed that would do the trick

I also give grain-free to mine and fingers crossed, not had any problems.

I’m no vet so I don’t want to go against your vet’s advice but I'm just wondering how the medicated shampoo is supposed to help if you don’t know what you’re up against ?
I mean if it’s fungal or parasites, well ok. But I’d be concerned about the shampoo drying the coat out and making it itchier or more sensitive than it already is ...

Nifty staffy wrote:I also give grain-free to mine and fingers crossed, not had any problems.

I’m no vet so I don’t want to go against your vet’s advice but I'm just wondering how the medicated shampoo is supposed to help if you don’t know what you’re up against ?
I mean if it’s fungal or parasites, well ok. But I’d be concerned about the shampoo drying the coat out and making it itchier or more sensitive than it already is ...

I completely agree with you. That’s exactly the question I asked. She said it’s a trial and error at this point. She said sometimes the scrapes can show a false negative so use the shampoo just in case. I think he is less itchy but I wouldn’t say his spots have improved whatsoever. I will change his food to grain free and see what happens. I was just concerned about another food change. But then again if grain is the problem I think it’s worth the try. Now to find which grain free to give him

As long as you transition correctly, the change in feed (again?) shouldn’t be a problem.

As to which feed, it’s a case of trial and error, taking into account your budget and availability.
I give mine Acana (previously Orijen) and am very happy with both (feeds and dogs !). In previous posts here, other kibble have been highly recommended too but I can’t get them here

Nifty staffy wrote:As long as you transition correctly, the change in feed (again?) shouldn’t be a problem.

As to which feed, it’s a case of trial and error, taking into account your budget and availability.
I give mine Acana (previously Orijen) and am very happy with both (feeds and dogs !). In previous posts here, other kibble have been highly recommended too but I can’t get them here

Honestly, at this point I’m not looking at the prices so much. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t have money to throw around lol . I just want to do everything I can so his skin gets better. I’m in Australia so most of the foods I got recommended by the pet shop are Australian made. I’ll research a bit more about ingredients in all of them and go from there. I’ll try and find previous post.
Thanks again

If the spots are hair loss, then the hair won't grow back immediately, so if you change foods/use a medicated shampoo you won't know if it works for about three or four weeks!

Grain, although not exactly 'good' for dogs can, to an extent, be digested. Wheat & maize/corn are the worst ones, with wheat being at the top of allergens!

Swimming is brilliant for all ages of dog and because it doesn't put a strain on the weight bearing joints, it won't damage hips or elbows. If he likes swimming, let him swim!

It may have been mentioned before (my memory is atrocious!), but it's possible that it's Colour Dilution Alopecia. You say his mum was whitre, but do you know if her ancestors were blue? Of course, it's a fairly rare condition, and he probably doesn't have it, but it's worth bearing in mind.

gillybrent wrote:If the spots are hair loss, then the hair won't grow back immediately, so if you change foods/use a medicated shampoo you won't know if it works for about three or four weeks!

Grain, although not exactly 'good' for dogs can, to an extent, be digested. Wheat & maize/corn are the worst ones, with wheat being at the top of allergens!

Swimming is brilliant for all ages of dog and because it doesn't put a strain on the weight bearing joints, it won't damage hips or elbows. If he likes swimming, let him swim!

It may have been mentioned before (my memory is atrocious!), but it's possible that it's Colour Dilution Alopecia. You say his mum was whitre, but do you know if her ancestors were blue? Of course, it's a fairly rare condition, and he probably doesn't have it, but it's worth bearing in mind.

Swimming is something I hope he will enjoy. Haven’t tried it yet as it is winter in OZ. He absolutely HATES bath time.
CDA has constantly been at the back of my head. I have seen his parents paper. No blue to blue five generation behind. Don’t know about before that as it’s not on the pedigree papers. I really hope it’s not that, but it’s always a possibility. The way I understand it is that it happens because of blue to blue breeding. Is that right? Some of his ancestors are blue, but none of them have been bread with a blue , if that makes sense

Thanks for your advice

I was just thinking about your initial skin issue.
It might not be the most frequent or probable cause but something alot less common like reactions to his vaccinations.

When you went to fetch him, he should have had his pup prejabs which could explain the few lumps on his head.
Then you had to do the course of monthly vaccinations recommended for all puppy owners but that represents alot of vaccinations over a short period. Being blue, he might just be a bit more sensitive and just react harder.
That might be what your vet was talking about regarding the immune system cause.

Just a thought

CDA isn't as simple as blue to blue breeding. Your pup is a very deep blue, so the chances are his mum has a strong blue gene. Was one of her parents blue, and was one of their parents blue?

Regarding the immune system - yes, it's possible & that's one reason some pups develop demodex. The mites aren't kept under control fully & so they get out of hand.

If scrapes haven't shown mites (and I know sometimes you can get a false negative) then the shampoo will do more harm than good.

If the skin is dry, try massaging coconut oil into the affected areas every day. It may not help, but it won't harm!

gillybrent wrote:CDA isn't as simple as blue to blue breeding. Your pup is a very deep blue, so the chances are his mum has a strong blue gene. Was one of her parents blue, and was one of their parents blue?

Regarding the immune system - yes, it's possible & that's one reason some pups develop demodex. The mites aren't kept under control fully & so they get out of hand.

If scrapes haven't shown mites (and I know sometimes you can get a false negative) then the shampoo will do more harm than good.

If the skin is dry, try massaging coconut oil into the affected areas every day. It may not help, but it won't harm!

Both her parents and white and blue pied(more white then blue).
Grandparents white/black and white/blue
Brindle and blue/white
Great grandparents
Blue/fawn and white/black
Blue and blue/white
Blue/white and brindle
Blue and blue/white
That’s all there is on her papers

I’ll start the coconut oil  massage.
I wouldn’t say his overall skin is dry. It’s just the the spots and some of them.
I got his grain free for today. All treats are now also grain free.
I’ll keep you updated.
I really hope it’s not CDA

Thank you so much for your input

Which grain free food did you choose in the end ?

Ivory coat, Natural health

I hope it works for you

Thank you. I hope so too. I’ll keep you posted

I don't want to worry you, after all CDA is relatelively uncommon, but the dam is also "blue bred" as all the ancestor 'couples' have at least one blue. That raises the chances of CDA quite a lot, but as I said, it's still an uncommon condition.

Fingers crossed!

gillybrent wrote:I don't want to worry you, after all CDA is relatelively uncommon, but the dam is also "blue bred" as all the ancestor 'couples' have at least one blue. That raises the chances of CDA quite a lot, but as I said, it's still an uncommon condition.

Fingers crossed!

Something to talk about with the vet.
I did so much research before I got Archie. I new about CDA. I obviously didn’t realise that as long as there is a blue gene present, even if they are not only pure blue, it’s still possible to have a pup with CDA. Honestly, I don’t think I would have found a blue without the puppy being at risk of having CDA. As they all have some blue to blue. I thought I was being careful .
He is all good now but he has had a rough time with being a swimmers pup, having hobbles and all that. It wasn’t properly addressed by the breeder, who tried to convince me that he was fine. I took him to a specialist after we picked him up who said it was obvious that that’s what it was. I didn’t want to give up on him, so I did everything the specialist said. Weekly check ups and a lot of money spend.  We are still worried about hip dysphasia. Only because he wobbles so much and his rear legs are wide apart. Or maybe that’s only because he is a staffy. That’s what I hope anyway.
He was underweight when we picked him up as the food he was on was causing loose stools and a lot of them. He was only 2.5kg when we picked him up. Once I changed his food he started catching up. That’s how I found this forum because I was worried about his weight and was researching.
So sorry for the verbal diarrhoea . My husband and everyone around me says I’m obsessed with all this and I am out of my mind to worry so much. But I love this dog beyond words and I want him to be well. I feel like everyone here would understand that

I don't blame you for being obsessive - although I think it's more kind & thoughtful than obsessive!

At 16/17 weeks, he won't have full strength in his muscles yet, so he'll probably wobble a bit anyway. As he grows & strengthens the wobble should gradually stop. It's not worth worrying about too much until he's at least a year old, because even with HD the muscles can be strengthened enough to support a dodgy joint and no treatment will be needed.

So just keep doing what you're doing & I'm sure he'll be fine!

Thank you so much.

Wow, sounds like he had a really rough start through no fault of his own and his breeders don’t seem to have helped him much.
So glad he’s found you !

Nifty staffy wrote:Wow, sounds like he had a really rough start through no fault of his own and his breeders don’t seem to have helped him much.
So glad he’s found you !

Thank you
Breeders mistake was that she didn’t pick it up earlier. He also got the all clear (according to the breeder) at his six weeks check up and vaccinations. I personally find that hard to believe, that a specialist would miss something like that. Breeder said he is just too weak for his weight. I thought that was ridiculous as he was underweight at that point. You could tell something was wrong just by looking at him. I was lucky that I saw a video of a swimmers puppy on Facebook a couple of weeks before we picked him up. So when I saw him it was obvious. Anyway,... water under the bridge a guess. He is one strong boy now. And sooooo smart. He amazes me every day and puts a smile on my face. I think the rough start Created a special bond for both of us. I spend every second with him, especially the first few weeks. Every one comments, even my husband, that when Archie looks at me you could tell I’m his everything lol. Love him to bits

Y'know, that's exactly it - your pup is your family & you'll do whatever's necessary to make them happy... as you should!

Hi everyone, just a little update on Archie’s skin. I have started transitioning him on the grain free food. We are doing 50/50 at the moment. In the last week we have noticed that his skin is looking a lot better then it was. His bald spots are less visible. I highly doubt that it’s because I’ve started changing the food as he is still getting grains from his old food. I have reduced his medicated baths to once a week. He is still having coconut oil, sardines and carrots which he absolutely loves. I have completely stoped the treats that he was having before as they had a lot of not so good stuff in them. What does everyone think, could it be that it’s getting better on its own or is the food making a difference? I think he is not a massive fan of the new food as he doesn’t eat his meals where as before he would eat it very fast and would never have leftovers.

He is absolutely gorgeous! 

What treats were you using?

gillybrent wrote:He is absolutely gorgeous! 

What treats were you using?

Thank you
They are called vitapet. He would only have a very small amount (as per package guide) but they have sugar added among other things. Got them recommended at the pet shop, but then I saw it at the grocery shop. Good thing about it it says it’s made out of real chicken but the rest of it not so good

anything grain, fiber or such like sets vins itching into over drive

For wheat gluten and grain free anything like natures menu wainwrights james wellbeloved dried liver also gave my dog sardines tuna and mackerel introduce stuff gradually treats and food wise .