Hello and Help

Hello
I was wondering if anyone has any ideas to help with Cobi.
After a few years of not having a dog, my lovely old Staffy being stolen and my next dog dying after 12 years, we did the usual never having another dog until we saw Cobi.
I have always been a sucker for a sad case and he was just that, at 13 weeks already on his second owner, a son who said he couldnt cope as he trashed his flat (not much trashing when he was just from him mum) and his mum who had taken him and kept him permanently in a crate. As you can imagine he charged out of the cage, bouncing and jumping but biting too. It was more than just puppy biting but having experienced the wonderful time you can have with a staffy against if I dont take him he is back in the cage forever, I took him.
He was terrified at first wouldn't leave my side, seemed shocked at the freedom, was joyous to get the harness off which had rubbed bald patches (I suspect had never been taken off). Was frightened of going for a walk checking over and over that someone was there on the end of the lead, but in a few days that had gone and he settled down with us. He now sits on command is very food motivated but he bites. Its not the normal puppy biting its real lip curled bites especially against my husband and son and any other male visitors we have, drawing blood on may of them.
I guessed it was fear rather than aggression and suspect he has not had the nice experiences he should have had in his short puppy life. We have perservered with him and his training, he is out every day 3 times a day trying to catch up with his socialising as he has obviously had none at all, and that is going well. Now at 15 weeks he is lovely in every respect but turns for no reason what so ever and bites. We had him at the vets yesterday explained everything to him, had him checked over and as he was a man he did his usual and bit him too. I did feel reassured to be fair that the vet also agreed that this is something more than puppy biting.

Anyway, I wondered had anyone experienced this in an a pup, or even older dog and how did they cure it? MY husband and son are being very patient, taking him on his walks, trying to ignore the biting and rewarding the good behaviour, but there is a limit to how many times blood can be drawn for them. I really don't want to give up on him but also fear having a full grown staffy with a tendancy to bite like he has with no provocation.
If anyone has any tips, plans, ideas or has experienced and broken this in their dog, could you please let me know. He hasn't had the best start in life at all, and he has a place now where he can have a great life with experienced dog owners but this is a whole new experience for me and any help is stopping this whilst he is still a pup would be appreciated. Thank you in advance.

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Hi & Welcome to the Forum from Flo and me

Seems odd that the biting is harder than just normal puppy biting. Makes me wonder whether a male Human has been less than kind in his short life and he views all males as a threat. To start with get the males in your house to do the feeding. Being food orientated this will help with the male = food = nice. Also make sure that they all interact with Cobi but keep hands out of the way of the face. A waved hand looks like a nice toy so keep it out of the way and replace it with a dog toy. This will reinforce that Humans are not toys to bite.

I'm sure others will happily offer further advice and do keep us updated with his progress.

Hiya from me and Vinnie, cant add much more than Ian really

Thank you, I believe the same with the not too nice male, especially with the comment that Cobi has 'trashed' her sons flat. He wasn't really big enough to trash anything. I will try the male reinforcement thing too thank you. It confirmed yesterday at the vets that it is definitely a male issue, but if I try to distract him from biting my son he then turns that aggression to me. Yet 95% of the time he is the usually, bouncing, licking staff and the most loving thing you can imagine. I will keep you updated and thank you again

Sounds more like a fear thing with his background you need to be really firm so he knows who the pack leader is say no firm when he does this he maybe hasn't been shown any leadership in the past my old dog was similar endure you are pack leader whenever you let him out or give him dinner make him sit first then invite him to go out or eat his dinner this makes you pack leader hope this helps staffys can be headstrong and be firm at all times

Rachel, one of our Moderators has a lovely girl that didn't like men either. Hopefully she can offer some helpful tips when she gets a min so do pop back and check for replies.

Cant add to already good advice welcome from me and mia

Hiya Gaynor. Welcome to the forum Poor little lad, sounds like he's had a really rough couple of months. As he had been passed around a lot, I don't suppose you know anything about his parents and if either of them had any worries around people? You are more than likely right that it's also previous experience so far - a puppies main socialization period is up to 12 weeks, so if he's had negative experiences in this time it may well take a little more work to bring him around, but it's certainly not impossible.

Ian is right in that my girl was human aggressive - specifically men, when I adopted her. The thing is, a lot of men are bigger, broader and louder than women and this on it's own can be intimidating to a very tiny puppy. I would imagine that his reaction is due to fear, and patience is going to be key in his socialization. I wouldn't be concerned about any "pack leader" stuff, and by all means don't watch the dog whisperer for tips! The dominance theory has really been debunked, and I find with nervous or aggressive dogs can make the problem a whole lot worse! Have you noticed any rhyme or reason to his bites, even a certain time of the day if you're not picking up a specific incident right before? There will always be a reason for him showing aggression, even if it isn't clear to us at the time.

Thank you for all your brill advice. I will persevere with him as I know its not of his own doing, and apart from the biting, he is a lovely dog as you can see from his picture and a normal staffy in all other respects. I am going to need more shoes lol. That was the face looking at me when we got him from the cage, he is a little bigger now lol
I will keep you updated though if that is OK and thank you again everyone

Glad you're sticking at it Just be sure to go at his pace, encourage the male's in your house to interact from a distance with feeding etc, but not going to him or trying to pick him up/stroke him. Allow interaction to be initiated by him and if he looks uncomfortable, stop and give him a break. If he's motivated by food, men casually throwing treats to the floor near them might encourage him to approach. Just don't force any interaction, keep everything positive and gentle

Hi and welcome from us and Suki

Hi Rachel,
No no reason at all, he likes to sit on the chair arm with me and if you nudge him he will nip so I then put him down on the floor. When my son gets up in a morning he is waiting at the bottom of the stairs for him, jumps him as if he is going to play, I have told him to ignore that behaviour completely and ignore him but if my son does that he bites his legs and ankles drawing blood and sometimes jumps to bite him too. Its almost like he is trying to establish himself in our 'pack' and he thinks he is above Matthew, yet he doesn't bite my 2 daughters as much and when he does it is like normal puppy biting, over excited play.
He does respond to the water bottle though. We had a couple of days of spray when biting, but now I only have to shake the bottle and he stops so seems to recognise that as a No, hopefully the bottle will go away soon and I think I may have to get Matthew his own bottle lol.
As an example yesterday he was at the vets, thought it best to check if he had anything hurting causing it, but no, he loves everyone, wants everyone to stroke and fuss him, sat on command on the vet table, let the vet touch him everywhere, think the vet was beginning to think we were the barmy ones, then he turned away to type into his computer and Cobi grabbed him too, which prompted the vet to say 'Oh I see what you mean, there was no provocation for that what so ever', yet when he is out walking he doesn't care if people are male or female he wants everyone to fuss him as a puppy does. Its almost like a little switch goes off and he turns into something possessed for a second. I am almost certain he has had some abuse as we cant wag fingers or raise a hand as that prompts some real lip curling snarls from him, not as a pup should be thinking your hand is a toy. He is not food aggressive as you would expect, we can take anything from him, food, toys, shoes, slippers etc without a murmur, we have 3 cats too, he doesn't bother them unless of course they run, the house training is coming along more miss that hit at the moment but getting there and right now as I am typing he is laid on my husbands knee like a totally different dog. His confidence is coming along, he doesn't like to be told no but is learning no is no, its just the lip curling bites we need to sort out really. I know nothing of his parents and although told he was 13 weeks the vet thinks maybe a bit older too. I knew as soon as he came out of that cage he wasn't right and she was frightened of him too and his first interaction was to run straight to my husband and bite his hand. I think he will come right as everyone says and thank you again for your help and experience with dealing with this behaviour. Is your girl OK with men now?
Thanks for all the advice and I will keep you updated as to his progress.

Hi and welcome from Oz and me. It sounds like you are really rwally trying and the poor babe didn't have a good start, please keep us updated of your progress

Hey! Thanks for the detailed post it sounds partly like it begins in play, especially if he's play mouthing your son initially and then biting when he ignores him. It's sad that such a young puppy has learnt that biting gets him what he wants I.e scary people to go away. Biting the vet may have been because he was so scared of the handling, most feat biters will do so when the scary thing has turned its back. I had a girl at the rescue centre that would accept petting quietly and then bite their ankle as they turned to walk away - seems like there's no reason but there's a lot more to it than that.

Okay, so, you need to stop with the water spraying etc - this is an aversive and he's only not doing it because he is scared of the water - negative breeds negative. If he wants to play redirect him to a suitable toy that he will chew on and play with him with that, a raggy toy for example. It's a completely normal behaviour for puppies to mouth and by correcting that behaviour you are simply suppressing it, but he still needs an outlet so it's best to teach him what he can chew/bite as well. I would start noting down every bite incident and exactly what happened before it. I absolutely doubt that he's trying to become a higher rank - dogs know that we are not dogs and we are not their pack - we are their family so it's more of a pecking order than anything but they're not constantly fighting for rank/dominance as old school theories would have you believe. They're a completely different species living in a human world and we need to show them what's appropriate and what's not, and give them activities in which they can behave like a dog. You absolutely need to enforce boundaries too, but understanding why he's carrying out the behaviour is key to knowing how to work with it.

Would you be willing to work with a trainer that could come and see your boy and help you get to the bottom of his biting? What area are you in?

Some very, very good information and ideas from Rachel. I'd second the thought of getting a professional behaviourist out, there really is nothing like seeing it for yourself and seeing how everyone reacts to give proper advice.

One other thing to throw in, it is possible that the biting is because he feels intimidated by men, as Rachel mentioned, and one of the most intimidating things we do all the time is stand head on to a dog and look them in the eye. In dog language that's a threat. When you're keeping a note of when Cobi bites, it's worth also noting what the person is doing and whether he is responding to that direct 'glare' look or something similar. I'd also encourage people, especially men, not to look directly into his face.

It does sound like you are working hard and getting some great results already and I feel so hopeful for you and Cobi. We all have our fingers and claws crossed that he'll learn quickly that he can trust people now, and that you'll soon have a happy little man.

hia from me and sasha

Hi
Well today seems to have been the first day Cobi has been a staffy pup.
I did what you said last night, Matthew fed him and walked him and again this morning. I read all the replies to everyone in the house and we all started saying NO instead of Cobi, stop it, go away, etc. We are all trying to be really calm around him even when playing as I read the main website about us initiating and stopping play not him.
Although the spray is still here we haven't used it today, as he seems to have finally associated the bottle with NO. I picked it up to move it today and he sat down lol. As I knew he had a bad start I thought this was the kindest option until he made the association with the word No rather than shouting or raising a hand or wagging finger which prompted the lip curling.
He has just been a normal pup today, stealing the socks from the washing, running around dragging my daughters bra behind him like its the best prize ever and much to my husbands annoyance he has discovered how to open his underwear draw so my husband is down to 2 pairs of underpants and a wet pile outside lol.
Hes had his mad minutes with his pulley toy, well half a pulley toy as hes eaten the middle half and had a run around with his beloved bear skin. It was a whole teddy bear but he defluffed that in days. Hes not been so clingy to me today either, hes usually on the chair arm or as close as he can get, but now he is fast asleep on the other chair.
Thank you for all the advice its amazing how those couple of little tweeks have changed him today and hopefully he will forget his nasty caged start and the lad who had him originally.
Thinking of where we picked him up from I suspect he was going to be a status dog as the estate was a bit rough and there are plenty on there in their big harnesses strutting around with their 'tough' dogs, so I guess maybe the lad, had been trying to rough him up a bit but I can never say that 100% as I will never know as Cobi can't tell me.

Fingers crossed this behaviour will continue, next step is - its nearly there but to stick your head out of the door and not the rest of your body and still pee inside hasn't quite nailed it lol.

Thank you for all your advice and I will keep you informed of his progress. Its only day one so I suspect there will be some relapses but hopefully not and he will grow to be the wonderful staffy my old Buster was.

How do I upload pictures into this chat and I can show you him today

The new profile picture is Cobi just now, he really can't be bothered lol.

Hey great news that you've made progress so quickly

Here's a link on how to post pics, we love pictures here so the more the merrier:-
https://staffy-bull-terrier.niceboard.com/t12017-how-to-post-a-photos-onto-the-forum

Hi and welcome to the forum from me and the zoo xx

Hi
Cobi is still doing well, no incidents, the hubby and son doing the feeding and walking seems to be working brilliantly, I have put a new profile picture up, (I cant get the hang of uploading pics) and that is an actual visitor in the background who he has not bitten whoo hoo.
He is growing really fast too, seems to be over night and one day he will fit into his skin and ears lol
Thank you everyone for the great advice, I can't believe the change.

Aww such a lovely update. Keep up the good work xx