Littermates...please help

Ok, feeling like a total newbie and very ignorant We had no idea there could be any issues with getting two pups from the same litter. Getting a dog wasn't a spur of the moment whim, we've been considering it for over a year. However, buying the second pup (Rascal) was an "on the spot" decision I must admit. The friend we got the girls from didn't indicate it could be problematic, all they said was "you shouldn't keep a male pup with the mother".

After a lot of trawling the net, it seems we're in for some work. I guess we're after some hope that it is possible to raise two well balanced, safe, happy littermates. What do you guys think? Feeling a little miffed with our friends as they wouldn't consider keeping them until they were 8 weeks, and now it seems they didn't know enough to give us good advice re purchasing two girls.

Their behaviours are as follows:
nasty nasty fighting with eachother, growling, biting, barking
Growling at the children
Inhibited biting of hubby and I
Millie whines when Rascal not with her
Very competitive for attention from us - if Millie approaches us, Rascal jumps in and growls/bites Millie and vice versa
If we start to play with one, the other tries to take over
Millie seems more "anxious"

Our plan (so far):
Separate crates
Feed, play and sleep separately
Train separately
Spend time with them individually

Haven't bought into the whole Cesar Millan stuff, but I do think he has some good ideas. Correcting Millie when she showed too much anxiety around another dog (a Chihuaha growled and barked at her yesterday) worked a treat, she calmed right down and just sat there!

Should we attempt to exchange one of our girls for a boy? (unthinkable, but we want to do what's best for them). Another friend has two boys from this litter, one of whom is deaf. Oh, this same couple who own the Bitch, have kept one female puppy, only to now discover that keeping a female pup with her mum is not a good idea either. Had I realised how little they knew, I would have not taken their word at face value.

Please Help!

Im not going to lie you really have let yourself in for some hard work but i personally believe u seem to be the type of ppl who WILL put in the effort that is needed to possibly get them living in harmony. Two of the same sex is usually a no no as is dogs very close in age and littermates is a really big no no lol but in my opinion its too late for worrying about that youve got the little monkeys now and the best thing to do is work on the future. You are going to have to make sure they no thier place, both of them, i would sugest to aid this not to let them on sofas or beds etc. Crates are a definate yes as u will have to separate them whenever u are not around for there own saftey. Yes feed them separately as well to avoid any fights and keep special toys or treats etc for when they are separate as well. Dont worry to much about the rough play at this age although still correct them is its getting to much as staffs do play hard! I think my best advice would be to be hard i no they are cute little things at the mo but they will grow quickly lol obviously they get there cuddles and love etc but i wouldnt take any messing from either of them make sure thewy no it. You will be fine x

I made this mistake 15 plus years ago when i purchased a male and female amstaff from the same litter.Being a new dog owner at the time.I was unable to keep both and chose to keep the male..It seemed to me that the sibling rivalry created from birth and maybe even earlier was extremely difficult to overcome..They acted much like your saying barked, bit, growled and showed a general dislike for one another.

I noticed that you mention the seller not keeping the dogs for the full 8 weeks...How long did they keep them?I know in the states 8 weeks is the minimum for proper weening of the pups..With the pups being so young it is difficult to discipline or teach them with vocal commands.I would recommend that you teach them there place in the pack as there mother would and pick them up by there scruff(back of neck) like there mother would...This should make your point clear when trying to discourage certain behaviors and it will also let them know who is boss in the pack.

I do think raising litter mates can be done but i don't think it has to do with the sex of the pair and separation is not the answer either in my opinion.It will be up to you and your family to work them into there place in your pack.With consistent correction and affection any 2 dogs can learn to get along.
Hope this helps in some way and good luck.

As already said, you're in for some very hard work. Two of the same sex is hard enough, but two littermates of the same sex is daunting.

They will be competing for evrything all the time - your attention, food, toys etc.

You will need to be firm and very consistent. You will need to correct any unwanted behaviour immediately and every time, never let something go 'just this once'. The training, certainly to start with, as you say should be done seperately, but once certain commands have been mastered, then try them together, as they each must learn to do as they are told when the other is around.

I would definitely feed seperately, at least for the first few months, and maybe for life depending how they get used to each other later, and I would also get two crates, not only so that they can sleep/be left alone seperately, but also so that you can get a bit of peace from time to time without the worry that they will be 'at' each other!

Good luck, and if you have any specific worries/questions, please do ask - we're not experts by any means, but there's a lot of experience on here & you'll get a few hints & ideas to help you.

Thank you so much for the replies so far. So so appreciated! Pittboss, they were 6 weeks old. We tried very hard to talk the owners into keeping them for longer, but they were going on holiday. We're committed to working hard to do the best we can for them and fortunately our work is such that there is always someone home 24/7. Training the children is actually harder! The pups are far more compliant and reliable!!!!

Currently they are booked into puppy school/training together along with 2 of their other littermates (both boys, one of whom is deaf). Is this an ok idea or should they go separately? My worry is that none of them will be able to concentrate with the other 3 around. Man, were we naive!!!

Hi there. Its going to be challenging to raise two sisters but it can be done as long as you are vigilant and put in lots of training time.
My bitch had a litter two years ago and we kept a bitch puppy from the litter, my best friend had the other girl and they have grown up and been around each other constantly from 8 weeks old. The things you have to watch for, and be ready to step in and stop are; Dominance, competition for food, attention and toys, bullying. Not saying its been easy, my girl Tali and her sister Brandy have had a few disagreements. As long as you can learn to understand their body language and step in before things get rough you should be okay.

I would feed them apart and make sure there are enough toys (two of the same thing preferably) so that this doesnt become an issue. Training is best done together, if you can have one person to a dog and train simultaneously it will help them learn to listen around one another and will be inavluable in the future when you start to teach recalls etc. Leave them seperately in different crates when you are out, its not worth the risk IMO. Its a real shame that the breeders didnt keep the pups longer as their mum is the best teacher about acceptable behaviour and the more direction they get at a young age the better. I wouldnt physically correct the pups. Where I am usually very calm and dont give many commands with my dogs when i get angry or really need them to listen I raise my voice and sound more commanding they do as they are told. I think the change in tone and pitch comes as a shock and catches their attention. If you shout at them all the time this wont work and they will become 'deaf', I call it selective hearing! It sounds like Millie might be the more submissive of the two, given that she is slightly more anxious and wants her sister with her when she isn't. The most important thing here is going to be dominance, sounds like Rascal might end up being the more dominant of the two. In the wild different females from the same litter will have worked their way into certain positions, naturally some will be stronger, some weaker. This is where the most competition is and why people do not recommend keeping dogs from the same litter together.

Just saw your other post, i think its better to take all of them together. True at first they will be murder and will just want to play, but its better to train them with distractions around. This will make them more reliable and easier to train in the future when you want to advance their training. Good luck

Thanks for the all the feedback and advice. While we are giving serious thought to re-homing one of the pups, we would prefer to give it a real go at keeping both, and there is plenty of good advice here. As rascal-girl says, our work situations are such that we are in a better position than most to have the at home time to make this work.

With regard to the 'breeders', they are friends of ours, rather than professional breeders. We get on very well with their dog, and when they announced that they planned to breed her, they offered us first choice of the first litter and at a 'mates rates' price. The more we read though, the more it is clear that they really do not know much about raising or breeding dogs, and nor have they gone into this knowing much about puppies. Of the six pups in the litter, four have gone in pairs.

In the last 24 hours, since we have really been mindful of and watching for these 'littermate' type behaviours, and applying some of the advice from here and other boards, we have seen an improvement. This afternoon I took Millie for a short walk alone, then took her into the back yard and fed her, and while she ate I took Rascal for a walk. When we returned, Rascal went out the back to eat and Millie came inside.

There was some aggression when they were both inside so we separated them, but they were much calmer later on and settled down to sleep together quite happily.

We have just purchased a crate on ebay and will aim to buy a second from the same seller that ends in 24 hours time. Our living room is already set up such that we can potentially have both crates in there with no line of sight between them.

good luck with everything, it sounds like you are trying very hard, please dont forget we are here for any more problems that you have and we will try to answer your questions.
keep up posted

Hehehe, hopefully we won't make you regret those words.

Seriously though, it is such a relief to know that there is good advice here and even just the emotional support. I hate to think the damage we could potentially do to these two precious pups if we just 'let nature take its course' and didn't intervene to protect the quality of life for both of them.

We'll certainly be letting you know how things are going.

good

I think at their age, they are being playful rather than aggressive with each other at the moment, but it can escalate as they get older.

You certainly are going to have your hands full with having two littermates, and both females at that (in my experience, female/female aggression is often worse than male/male aggression) but as the others have said, it can be done if you are willing to put in the work and know what to look out for.

We're here anytime for a chat or advice, and it might be worth looking at local clubs/trainers in your area because you may need a little help as the girls get older. It's great that they're going to puppy classes, early socialisation is a must. Good luck, I hope it works out for all of you

I am glad to hear your going to give it the old college try with the 2 of them...The separate kennels/crates is a good idea as both dogs will enjoy having there own space when they need it.The puppy/people training is a good idea and they should do fine with the group as most of the training will be for you not so much the pups..
It sounds like there is some food aggression and this is normal for puppies.What I am doing with my pup and have done in the past is I get involved at feeding time by petting and touching and reaching into the food dish while my pup is eating..This will limit the aggression shown over a short time as the puppies know that you are the alpha in the pack.This same method can be used for toys..To train a dog you must learn to think like a dog..
I look forward to hearing your progress

Well things have taken an interesting twist this morning. I was taking Rascal for a short walk, and our neighbour came out (we live in a townhouse complex, unit 31, and she is on the other side in unit 1). She was totally taken by Rascal and even said, "can I steal you?". So I said, "Well funny you should say that."

Turns out they had to have their 14 year old German Shepherd euthanased last December and she is, in her own words, "still a mess", and desperate for a puppy. So it looks like if we did decide re-homing was the better option (and I have to say watching the pups this morning I'm starting to see the wisdom in that more and more), we might have a viable option that is also someone we know and trust, very close, and the dogs could still interact to some degree.

We shall see.

Well, it looks like it is on.

Millie is having a sleep over at our neighbour's tonight with a view to a permanent move. Even the kids have taken to the idea that this is a good thing for Millie. It's heartbreaking in one sense, but we also know we are doing the best thing for both pups.

Thanks so much to everyone for all your support and advice on this issue.

Rascal-girl feels like crying, and our little girl did have a cry, but we know it's best for them both We have learned a big lesson here - if you are going to bring a dog into your family, BE INFORMED! Saves heartbreak later on. If you're going to breed from your dog BE INFORMED so you can advise and guide the people purchasing your pups. We are totally prepared for one dog, but we let our heart rule in buying two.

We decided to re-home Millie now to lessen the impact of the separation (for her and us!). She curled up on Michelle's lap and kept looking up into her face which made me feel as though Millie's not unhappy with the situation.

You guys have been awesome and even though we are really new here, you've welcomed us and helped us so much. Thank you for your generosity.
We'll be sticking around! We still have one pup to raise!

Oh, and Rascal is already much more settled and calm, no more biting the kids or us, no more growling and she listens to us! The minute she puts her mouth on one of us we say "no" and she stops.

To be honest, I think you've probably done the right thing. I think that you would have struggled with the two of them, and that wouldn't have been your fault! Keeping two of the same sex from the same litter has so many problems go with it.

At least you know she'll have a good home & that you'll see her from time to time. Then the two girls can have a play, but when it gets a bit rough you can go your seperate ways & they will still be friends.

You'll also make a new friend with your neighbour!

Don't forget to keep us updated with how things are going - oh, and loads of pics!

It is great to hear that you decided to split them up and they will now be neighbors..I think it will be better for all concerned.Now both pups will get full time attention and love.A few moments of sadness for a lifetime of happiness is worth it in the end..Good luck with the pup and keep us posted...

Dont know what to say really but now you have learned a lesson and you will be able to educate others if they ask for your advise.
You have done the best for your 2 just hope everything works out for you ><

I can't say i have had any problems what so ever in keeping littermates together i had two sisters and their brother then i had 5 pup littermates together and three pups were together until about 4 months old I'v never had any aggression or problems.
Its a real shame the pups where not given the time by the breeders to learn a few things from their mum like you said they wanted them gone before 8 weeks and this is not recommended, A pup is generally supposed to stay with their mum until about 12 weeks because like human toddlers they have a sponge stage and its important they learn off of their mum.

MissRogue wrote: A pup is generally supposed to stay with their mum until about 12 weeks because like human toddlers they have a sponge stage and its important they learn off of their mum.

The usual recommended time for a pup to leave for its new home is 8 weeks.

Caryll wrote:

MissRogue wrote: A pup is generally supposed to stay with their mum until about 12 weeks because like human toddlers they have a sponge stage and its important they learn off of their mum.

The usual recommended time for a pup to leave for its new home is 8 weeks.

atleast 8 weeks if they can stay longer that'll be alot better.

8 weeks is recommended because after that age they bond too closely with their siblings & it can be more difficult to get them to settle in their new homes.

i have 3 males from same litter it is hard work but i found that keeping them togher is working well for them they walk at same time eat at same time
and sleep in same bed and with the odd bit of rugh play the very well setteld in dont no abuat the crate thing i dont belivie in it soz so di you keep them our rehome

We rehomed one. We were willing to give raising them together a go, but then our neighbour expressed interest and after weighing up the options, we decided to rehome her now rather than wait and possibly have to rehome her later after she was bonded with Rascal and us. She adores our neighbour already and the feeling is obviously mutual! After canvassing lots of opinions we feel comfortable we've made the right decision for the girls and us. It seems keeping boys together is not quite as tricky as keeping girls. We planned on having both altered which it seems can make things worse as they lose those lovely female "calming" hormones

We'll definitely be keeping in touch as we raise our gorgeous girl

hows the one you keept adaptin hope she ok
best wish form us five

Rascal's doing really well She's far more settled. She's curled up in my lap now as I type She is more calm, she has her own little den (cardboard box with a dog bed in it) into which she takes all her "treasures"! The crate has just arrived and she's loving her new "big" den Millie is very happy in her new home and seems to be thriving, so good result all round. Thanks for the best wishes