An unfortunate incident

An unfortunate incident. Walking to the shops, Douglas on short lead. Rounded a corner and a wire-haired terrier in front of us off lead. We stopped completely and  I shortened Douglas's lead yet further. The other owner 8 feet away. I warned 'my dog can be a bit grumpy with other dogs'. The other owner did nothing, but allowed her dog to come up and sniff Douglas nose-to-nose. I said it again - he may be grumpy. Just at that moment, the free dog (it was a male) urinated against a plant pot at the entrance to the shop we were outside, this was 6 inches in front of Douglas's face. He saw red and snapped. It was ugly. Many people somehow appeared and though neither I nor the other owner wanted it (so she said) one of the bystanders called the police. The other owner and I swapped names and details. The other dog is being taken to the vet for a check-up. I walked home in a state of some shock with Douglas. Upon getting back to the house, I phoned the other owner with the number written for me on a piece of paper to check that she had my number alright and to apologise again that this bad incident occurred and to agree to speak later when she knew what had happened at the vet's. So I havent spoken to the police, but I would assume that they will call. If anyone has any comments, I would be glad to hear.

Oh so sorry to hear this. I hope the bystanders realise the dog was off lead and you did warn the owner twice. How is Douglas? I'm sure your nerves are edgy   

Hiya! I'm so sorry to hear this, just awful for all involved. Was the other dog off lead on a pavement/next to a road?If so, I'm hoping this may help your case? Has Douglas ever attacked another dog before? May well be that you will have to muzzle him in public if the police do decide to take action. But as far as I'm concerned, your dog was on a short lead and you asked the owner not to let their dog approach, so technically their dog was the one out of control. Did the dog retaliate at all? Again, really sorry, must be such a stressful time.

Your dog was on lead and under control. You have nothing to answer for and the police will most likley not bother as you have done nothing wrong. In fact your warnings were ingnored. There will always be dog on dog attacks no matter the bread and unless there is a element of wrong doing its not worth the police time. You were responsible by keeping your dog leaded so end of.

Hello, thanks for your comments. Firstly, how Douglas is - he's as subdued as I am. He's taking his cue from me, though probably he doesnt know why.
Rachel33 - yes, the other dog was offlead on the pavement next to a reasonably busy road. Douglas has certainly grumped at other dogs before, which is why I warned, though there is no other incident that would be officially recorded. He sometimes may lunge at other dogs (we're working on this), but as he's always on lead, he can never make contact - unless, as in this case, the other dog is permitted to come close. The other dog didnt retaliate, but i mentioned the incident of the peeing against the flower pot under Douglas's nose as the thing, I believe, that caused Douglas to snap. This is not an excuse for what happened, but I do believe it was the trigger. So while the other dog didnt deserve the response he got, his behaviour did, I believe, start it in some sort of doggy way. Nathan, I do hope you're right.

The dda act doesnt apply in this case because he was on a lead and the other dog approached duglas. Its also not covered in the 1871 dogs act.
Id say you have nothing to worry about but if you want further reasurance have a word with ddawatch. Its free and they will be able to give you any advice relating to the law.

I would say same as Nath if Douglas was on lead then case closed. Hope it all sorts itself out and sorry this has happened it does make ya feel awful xx

So sorry to read about the experience you and Douglas have had today
and sincerely hope that the other dog will be ok.

Please don't beat yourself up about it, you did everything you possibly
could.    

This could happen to any one of us and is why we all dread the off lead
dog with an owner who simply won't listen as it makes life bad for all
concerned.

It's an awful thing to have happened and I hope you and Douglas are ok as well as the other dog. You did nothing wrong as Douglas was under your control.
There are owners who still let their dogs come too close even if they are on a lead and that you have warned them. I can't understand them

The other owners more liable i would say because their dog was off the lead but as usual the staffy gets the blame.

I just know this will happen to us sooner or later, that's why I got Alfie the "space" vest in hope they will take more notice.. People are too stupid to listen!
I do hope nothing comes of it and your nerves settle.
Hope common sense prevails, Douglas was under control and after several warnings their unleaded dog was still allowed to approach to get whatever he got. Hope no serious injuries to it though.

Very frightening. Hopefully you and Douglas can get back to normalcy.

How awful for you and Douglas   there was nothing more you could have done to avoid it, the other owner however could have had their dog on a lead or at least called it back when you gave warning, I'm sure you have nothing to worry about x

Well, I do beat myself up about this, naturally. This is the stuff that nightmares are made of. However, thank you everyone for your sane comments. As usual, it's the owners who are to blame and if there are more serious repercussions (and even if not) I will surely feel that I have let my dog down by not dragging him away when my verbal warnings were ignored. The other owner may reckon she could have acted more sensibly as well - but that's up to her. There are always things that one considers could have been done better, but the thing I'm very glad took place is the fact that I did give those verbal warnings. And this is the key thing that I would mention to others, to profit from my sorry story. If in doubt, do clearly say to the other owner that your dog may be unfriendly if you feel that s/he may be. It's the right thing to do and it may well be a protection for your dog and for you. And, of course, for the other dog. I will probably in the future say 'my dog is unfriendly AND SO PLEASE CALL YOUR DOG BACK'. I had thought that the second part of that sentence was implicit and a given. However, if some other owners dont get it, then the extra words are needed.

They still don't listen Im afraid. Cant believe even after warnings they are willing to risk their dogs getting bitten!   

Totally understand that you're feeling guilt and probably an array of other emotions.. I used to tell people that Biscuit was scared, because fear mostly drives her aggression and I thought that it seemed better for the breed, but it wasn't strong enough as people would just say "oh, mine won't hurt her" so I do now say "my dog isn't friendly, call yours back now please" if they do, I'm always polite and say thank you, but I do find being firm helps a little more, though not when the owner is 10 feet away.

Ultimately, allowing your dog to approach a strange person or dog is irresponsible. Many dog owners appear to believe that they own the world! I will admit that I have once picked Biscuit up in this situation, she was on a short lead and a husky approached looking very confident and without an owner in sight.. It was a stupid move that could have gotten me hurt, but she was petrified and refusing to move and I thought it easier to kick him away than break up a fight. Hindsight is a marvellous thing, but now you can only learn from the situation and build on it.

It's horrible but totally not yours or Douglas fault as he was on lead and the other dog wasn't and you warned the owner! But than again staffies are always the easy target to blame I hope she takes responsibility as I did when peppa was a pup and run towards aggressive dog on a lead and got bitten we had to kick the dog to let go of her but we were guilty and knew it. I hope the other owner will act the same and that her dog is not to bad injured.

why cant people listen to what is being said to them   ,you had douglas on lead the other dog was not on lead,totally the other owners fault,i hope you both are ok   

I did warn the other owner, true. She heard the words but she didnt seem to know what they meant. Or what action she had to take (call back her dog, do it now). The problem, perhaps it could be called ignorance. Looking at it through her eyes: my dog wouldnt hurt a fly, so she said. The idea that there may be dogs that are not so fond of flies (and that may be edgy with other dogs) was obviously not one that had occurred. But I dont let myself off any hook here. I am responsible for my dog - even in the face of the ignorance of others and probably the ignorance of others is the state that should be assumed. We will be doing some things differently as a result of this and I'm afraid that some of the lovely, affectionate Douglas's already curtailed freedoms will have to be reduced a little more. What else can you do?

So sorry to hear about this unfortunate occurrence. I'm with everyone else in that you gave advance warning and had control of Douglas.

I'm sure it's shaken your confidence but given time this will return. Although my Flo isn't what could be described as dog aggressive, she will have her moments and we just try to avoid any potential conflict, having said that, she will surprise and delight us when least expected.

Best wishes from Flo and me  

yeahbut wrote:I We will be doing some things differently as a result of this and I'm afraid that some of the lovely, affectionate Douglas's already curtailed freedoms will have to be reduced a little more. What else can you do?

Honestly i would say carry on as normal. whatever you do, whatever precautions you take something will always navigate around your barriers. Let Douglas enjoy himself being a dog, why should you change? you have done everything right! if he is on a lead you have the full backing of the law if an unleaded dog aproaches him.
pulling him away will only make him worse as well. beleive me i know how you feel, some of marleys antics would make your hair curl. once a small fluffy dog ran up to him, flipped on its back and started squeaking when he sniffed it... it then bacame a toy so he picked it up in his mouth. getting a dog out of your dogs mouth while its owner and two small children look on is not a thing id like repeating.
the thing to remember is that if your dog is under control you have nothing to worry about, if someone lets there dog off lead to approach yours the its negligence on there part.

I agree with Nathan there's no need to restrict him more as you have done nothing wrong and you can cause Douglas frostration . Hope you had a better day today.

Thank you very much Nathan and Peppa for your reassurance. Of course, I dont have the heart to make Douglas's life a misery and, despite all the worry, he got bonus sardines with his tea tonight. However, there are things that I can do to make him more safe, places to go to that are less thickly populated with dogs (and their ignorant owners). If I think about it these places do exist, even in the city.

As an update to yesterday's horrors, actually there is no update - so far. No one has called and there has been no contact. I will keep you posted.

Hopefully no news is good news x

yeahbut wrote:Thank you very much Nathan and Peppa for your reassurance. Of course, I dont have the heart to make Douglas's life a misery and, despite all the worry, he got bonus sardines with his tea tonight. However, there are things that I can do to make him more safe, places to go to that are less thickly populated with dogs (and their ignorant owners). If I think about it these places do exist, even in the city.

As an update to yesterday's horrors, actually there is no update - so far. No one has called and there has been no contact. I will keep you posted.

I agree with you that you are responsible for your dog's behaviour also. I muzzled Biscuit for 2 years as she wasn't ready to be in the world unmuzzled.. she was irrationally aggressive due to fear, and I couldn't always hand on heart say that her aggression was warranted; yes sometimes people are ignorant and allow their dogs to charge at her whilst she's on lead, trapped and feeling fearful; but Biscuit then tearing into them with her teeth isn't a level response to said action, a growl and perhaps a warning snap would suffice. I have never been in a situation when Biscuit has managed to physically attack a dog, if she hadn't have been muzzled in those early days I'm sure that I could have been, plenty of times, but I have been lucky.

We are now at a point where Biscuit is trained to a level that I can keep her under control whilst exiting the situation, but it has taken a long time to get there, and even now I can't say 100% that she would never react, but I don't believe that any other dog owner could make that claim truthfully. It's a tough one. I don't know where you tend to exercise Douglas at present, nor do I know the level of his aggression as this is the first incident that I have noticed you reporting. Personally, I don't walk in towns or dog parks; I drive Biscuit to Dartmoor or walk her in farmers fields, or the football fields at off peak times to ensure that she is still seeing dogs daily, but not being forced to interact. On top of this. socialisation with known, calm dogs a few times per week and daily training of obedience commands and impulse control. I carry a muzzle for emergencies, but she doesn't wear one daily any more.

thanks Rachel33, well here's a question for you. Does putting a muzzle on Biscuit actually change her body language towards other dogs? Obviously, the lunge is only the culmination of a whole load of behaviour that, if you're looking for it, you can recognise: the erect stance, the exaggerated upright jabbing tail, the raised hackles etc. It's not just me who's looking for these signs (and taking avoiding, mitigating action, obviously) it's the other dogs and it's for them that this performance is designed. Two common responses from other dogs can typically be either to go belly-up in submission or to prepare a lunge of their own. So even if Douglas is not going to lunge (and with many dogs he is a perfect gentleman) his body language may still be a little, shall we say, impolite. Not aggressive, but somewhere on that spectrum. (He is not the only one - I'm not making out that he's unusual). So, if a dog  knows that its powers are reduced (because of the muzzle) does that have any effect (moderation) on the deployment of the run-up behaviours? Does the dog maybe think: ah I shant bother winding up that weimaraner there with my evil eye and jabbing tail because I know that I dont have the equipment to defend myself, therefore I shall just walk sweetly by. Or is this being too logical?

a dog needs to feel it can defend itself if needed somtimes if it kicks off and your dog is at the end of the aggression its good to drop the lead and let the dog run. however there are times when your dog just takes acception.
marley has dragged a fox out the hedge and killed it.
charged through a hedge and killed the neighbours cat (1872 act slapping me on my ass) just got two pco's on my door saying i need a new fence.
mortified by all of the accounts i can assure you, his squirrelle count is now creaping up to double figures.
he postures other dogs and wont give in to anything, the way i get over it is to let his flexi out fully and he will generally walk off tail in the air. didnt want to admit all that on a public forum but if it gives you a shred of hope its all good by me. good luck and chin up, dogs will be dogs.

It's a tough one with the muzzle.. I muzzle trained lots of dogs in kennels and the ones that didn't like wearing it, even after densitising were tense, stressed and appearing to be even angry! So when out in public their behaviours were amplified, but when they were at a stage of having to be muzzled, I didn't feel that they were at a stage where they should be meeting other dogs anyway, so they were walked in quiet areas and their "focus" command training was worked on.

With Biscuit, she accepted the training and the muzzle well, I'm not sure that other dogs truly understand what a muzzle is, their short distance eyesight is so poor I would imagine that they just see a blur of plastic, her body language was the same with it without the muzzle, the owners reaction was different. They would scowl and drag their dogs away from the muzzled devil dog, which worked well for me as I didn't want their dogs near me anyway, but of course you get the odd idiot who allows their dogs to run up because they know that your dog can't hurt them, and that to me is completely unfair and I have had very strong words in these instances. I used a Baskerville ultra muzzle so that I could still feed her/train her with food rewards whilst wearing it. But even when muzzled I didn't change her walking areas, it was just there for situations that I couldn't control.. And I was very glad that it was on a few occasions. For dogs that are aggressive due to learnt behaviour, boredom or picking up on their owners fear, muzzles are great as generally the owner will become more confident, passing that onto the dog. I've never met Douglas and don't know why he's aggressive, if you can alter his walking areas a muzzle may not be required, but really I like muzzles and don't see them as a negative; just a life enhancer for dogs that can't control themselves in some circumstances. Impulse control games are great for training with aggression though!

Just a quick note, if you change to walking to more rural area's you are more likely to meet off lead dogs. I keep mine on lead most of the time but if in a out of the way area they get off to run around.