Our Boy's Pedigree.

I've never owned a pedigree dog before, so I'm a little confused about the whole pedigree thing. Is there such thing as a good or bad pedigree?

We chose our pup based on the fact all the relevant health tests were done and we fell in love with the little guy. Perhaps someone could explain the pedigree bit to me, is it just a way of tracking their family history?

His dad is Valglo Neptune, and his mum is Sapphire Voodoo Queen, who we've been told is a daughter of Blue Bouncer. Our breeder has told us there's something like 50 champions between them but we're not 100% sure what that means.

We've also chosen our pedigree name for our puppy, the breeder gave us three to choose from and we had first pick. He's going to be Blue Buddha Boy which we think is cute!

Am I being really think? Hope someone can explain it to me the dumbo.

Thanks!

Thick not think haha...

You're not being thick at all!

His inbreeding coefficient (how inbred he is) is a bit high (13%), which is mainly due to his sire's line. Valglo Neptune is 31%, and the breed average is only 7%! That means that some very close inbreeding has gone into producing Neptune, in his case his parents were half brother/half sister. Voodoo Queen is 13%.

I would also be very wary about the fact that both sire and dam are blue, which can lead to Colour Dilution Alopecia.

not picking on you as i done the same but any puppy from 2 blues has been breed purely for money not betterment of the breed as puppies from 2 blue parents have a high risk of developing problems eye / skin/ baldness so to some this would seen to be a poor pedigree
http://www.staffy-bull-terrier.com/how_to_buy_a_dilution_colour_dog

I see. Thanks for your replies.

Does this mean he's likely to have skin or eye problems as a result of his breeding? How likely do you think that would be?

I'm still confused about the inbreeding bit... Is there something online I could read to get a better idea of it?

Whatever happens, he's our boy and we'll love him all the same. If he has problems he has problems and we'll manage them.

My partner was interested in possibly studding him out when he's old enough and we've had the tests done. Would this be unwise because of his pedigree?

Rosie3 wrote:I see. Thanks for your replies.

Does this mean he's likely to have skin or eye problems as a result of his breeding? How likely do you think that would be?

The high inbreeding can lead to certain health problems (an increase in bone cancer, kidney & other organ problems). That doesn't mean he will get those, but there's an increase in the likelihood.

The blue x blue is a hot debate. Some people don't place any importance on colour dilution alopecia & say it's rare. But it seems to be on the increase because of the amount of pups being bred from two blue parents.  Again, he may not get it - but he will be more likely to have the condition, or at least allergies affecting his skin/coat.

Rosie3 wrote:I'm still confused about the inbreeding bit... Is there something online I could read to get a better idea of it?

I don't know of a specific site that deals with inbreeding, but basically it's breeding close family relatives together (in human terms it would be called incest!). Although it 'fixes' certain traits in the pups, it also increases health problems.

Rosie3 wrote:My partner was interested in possibly studding him out when he's old enough and we've had the tests done. Would this be unwise because of his pedigree?

Please don't. His father's pedigree would put me off ever buying a puppy sired by him. An inbreeding percentage of 31% is sky high, and really shouldn't be contemplated by any responsible breeder. Unfortunately, a lot of Valglo dogs are highly inbred. 

I hope I haven't come across as too nasty? I just think that people should be aware of possible problems before they come up, and before any breeding decisions are made.

No you haven't come across as nasty at all!

I'm new to staffys and new to pedigree dogs in general so I'm just trying to get a better understanding and you've been very helpful.

I'll have to talk it through with my partner but I think studding him out is now out of the equation. Our beautiful pup is the most important thing and we wouldn't want to do anything irresponsible. It was only a "maybe one day" sort of notion anyway. He'll be first and foremost our pet.

Thanks for all your help

Rosie3 wrote: It was only a "maybe one day" sort of notion anyway. He'll be first and foremost our pet.

Thanks for all your help

Been there, done that!  It's just so complicated if you're going to do it properly. 

If you are not a breeder then the whole studding / mating thing is always going to be a big dilemma , I have a lovely red boy bought as a family pet , ticks all the boxes on health tests , coi , close to breed standard etc and I have just been asked about using him as a stud dog next year and the likelihood is I will probably say no . Obviously as the stud dog owner you have the responsibility to make sure your boy is right , and then next comes the other question , is the bitch suitable

I have had people ask to have my boy service their bitch before, but i know that he is no good for breeding even if he does look amazing, he has hidden faults that people seem happy to over look for a good looking pup, so i would avoid it if there are any risks of passing on something nasty to his babies.

I love the name Blue Buddha Boy!

Here you can see his fathers Blood lines and which dogs where used and how many times they where used

http://www.stamtavler.com/dogarchive/details.php?id=132479

Thanks guys!

We love the name Blue Buddha Boy too hehe! And if he turns out to be a Bruno (which is looking extremely likely) he'll be Bruno the Blue Buddha Boy... Which has a nice ring to it!

2 more sleeps... I'm almost wetting myself with excitement. Friday can't come soon enough!!

Rosie3 wrote:Thanks guys!

We love the name Blue Buddha Boy too hehe! And if he turns out to be a Bruno (which is looking extremely likely) he'll be Bruno the Blue Buddha Boy... Which has a nice ring to it!

2 more sleeps... I'm almost wetting myself with excitement. Friday can't come soon enough!!

Best wishes with your new arrival Rosie3.

Just to add though champs in a pedigree means nothing it's just commercial nonsense to help sell the pups. The blue Valglo dogs are nice though and to my taste (even if some of their owners do exploit them for their studding services). Neptune from what i've seen is rock solid, and compact ... not to everyone's preference but i'd be happy with him.

A black bitch should always be used in any blue breeding program it keeps the pigmentation neat and helps reduce problems. Blue staffords should be a steel blue colour with dark features (from black influence), not yellow eyes and slate noses ... so watch out for that.

Hope you're happy with your puppy.
ATB
Paul

Thanks, at the moment he has a jet black nose and black claws (except a white one where he has a white toe). His eyes are still blue but his mum had gorgeous dark brown eyes so I'm hoping he'll take after mummy.

I just can't wait to see how he'll turn out... I wish there was some kind of gizmo to show me what he'll look like but keep him as a puppy for a bit longer lol!

Rosie3 wrote:No you haven't come across as nasty at all!

I'm new to staffys and new to pedigree dogs in general so I'm just trying to get a better understanding and you've been very helpful.

I'll have to talk it through with my partner but I think studding him out is now out of the equation. Our beautiful pup is the most important thing and we wouldn't want to do anything irresponsible. It was only a "maybe one day" sort of notion anyway. He'll be first and foremost our pet.

Thanks for all your help

I like the way you say he is first and foremost your pet, it shows you care. I wish there were more Staffy owners who thought like you  

I sometimes think that inbreeding COI isn't full explained properly and that the higher the COI the more negative the perception is. A high COI isn't an indication of faults or problems. There are always arguments for and against high COI's with close ancestors as there are arguments for and against outcross breedings (low COIs.)

In my eyes if the dog compliments the bitch and the pedigrees are researched and put together properly and tie in nicely then go for it.... I would be more concerned of the quality of the relations/parents over any COI. There is a bigger picture to it all.

ATB,
Paul

Have i just read your post right you think it's ok having an high COI?

what would happen if you only bred with half sister and half brother? how long do you think your family line will last for if you did this for 100plus year?

Steve wrote:Have i just read your post right you think it's ok having an high COI?

certainly sounds like it   re should only be one aim with high COI dog and that is to lower it . The days of this kind of breeding ( and acknowledged by the KC ) are over . Lets have some nice healthy dogs that didnt get confused about whether they were round Dad's house Grandad's house or Uncle's last night

The easiest way to look at inbreeding is to look at what you would breed within your own family. Would you breed with your half brother?

Pure inbreeding is risky and I don’t condone it, but line breeding is not detrimental and can improve stock when done properly (that is the key here). I’m not talking about mother to son / father to daughter matings that is inbreeding. Line breeding you would occasionally use cousins and half siblings…. if done PROPERLY a type is established and you can pretty much know what the outcome of the breeding will be.

Pure inbreeding shouldn’t be done, but line breeding (again, with knowledge of the ancestory and done properly) will cement vital characteristics.

My dog is a line bred Stafford, she’s very “typey” … I like her line and that’s one of the main reasons we got her.

ATB,
Paul

Hakuna wrote:Pure inbreeding is risky and I don’t condone it, but line breeding is not detrimental and can improve stock when done properly (that is the key here). I’m not talking about mother to son / father to daughter matings that is inbreeding. Line breeding you would occasionally use cousins and half siblings…. if done PROPERLY a type is established and you can pretty much know what the outcome of the breeding will be.

Pure inbreeding shouldn’t be done, but line breeding (again, with knowledge of the ancestory and done properly) will cement vital characteristics.

My dog is a line bred Stafford, she’s very “typey” … I like her line and that’s one of the main reasons we got her.

ATB,
Paul

I know all about line breeding and probably main reason why our staffy are dying before their time and this is why this forum will never support while i'm the owner...

Morning Steve,

You’re more than welcome to your views, as I am mine.

Do you not think that pure outcross breedings can introduce health problems and faults? .. When you say “this forum will not support it” does that mean that your staff and users aren't allowed to support it or condone it?

Just wanted some clarity on what you mean by that statement.

ATB,
Paul

Steve is in charge of the forum, so he decides whether or not something is condoned by the forum as a whole. As a part of a community, people involved need to realise that there are certain things that aren't supported. It doesn't mean that people have to be dead-set against it; just that the forum doesn't support it.

Personally, I don't like line-breeding either.

you can think it's ok we live in an free soceity but this forum is helping new owner, owner and staffy we think anything that could damage or increase risk of health problem we cant support. when top vets say it's wrong who work in this field all day long we have to follow what they say. we dont want our breed to end up like some other breed ect. Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, english bulldog and so on.

Steve wrote: when top vets say it's wrong who work in this field all day long we have to follow what they say. we dont want our breed to end up like some other breed ect. Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, english bulldog and so on.

Steve with all due respect a comparison between line breeding and breeding in faults/exaggerations are at opposite ends of the scale.

I'm not quite sure where to go with all this, as we both seem to have very different opinions and understandings as to what is effecting the breed.

ATB,
Paul

Inbreeding is rarely found in the wild except for genetic bottlenecks, so it isn't surpring that it causes health defects. A lot of people argue that these health defects can be avoided by careful selection of mating pairs, but that usually only applies to genetic flaws, rather than mutation. Inbreeding has been proven to have a detrimental effect on fertility and reproduction, as well as a high mortality rate in offspring.

Continous line breeding has been very strongly linked to undesirable mutations which may not become apparent until at least three generations of line bred dogs, at which point the damage has already done and has spread to a wider gene pool.

That's why I don't support line breeding, though of course I do accept that other people will have different opinions.

line breeding is inbreeding becasue you keeping the line in the family weakling the gene pool i thought everyone knew this :/

Guys, I’m not saying that line breeding should be taken on by any Tom, * or Harry. There is always a risk that faults, health issues and exaggerations can be introduced, and that’s why it should only be left to the likes of knowledgeable dog men and women. But it has proved to be successful form of breeding with people reporting no health issues and consistent, generational success.

Just for the record I appreciate I’m only new here.. I like to question things, I enjoy a debate so please don’t perceive me as trolling or trying to stir things up because that really isn’t my aim.I do like the layout and general flow of the forum. I intend to always be civil to be people on here. But there are some very intense and utmost, supreme views on here, which doesn't personally bother me, but for a new comer, perhaps new to the breed it must be quite daunting. I get the feeling that there is a little bit of “band wagon” thing going on too, maybe i'm wrong?… (Just a bit of honest feedback). I would like to think this as a friendly place where people don’t get bashed, flamed or de-valued for having an alternative view. I have a mind of my own and I will speak it.
ATB,
Paul

Like I said, I've given my opinion and I don't expect everybody to agree with it - you gave yours, I understood it and gave mine. Not flaming you or bashing you in the slightest, but people do have different views. Putting those views forward politely isn't devaluing anybody.

Sorry, Rosie - just realised this is completely off-topic from what you were asking about.  

I like the name you've chosen for your little guy!

Hi Rosie3.

I bet you are so excited about collecting your new addition, I am sure Bruno (if that does become his name) will be a lovely young man, who will bring you lots of happiness and enjoyment.

Also please consider what Caryll has said, we only wish to inform you so that can make the best decisions for yourself and the breed.

I look foward to seeing some pictures of him.