The Reason I Don't Like Cesar Milan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFCGtatpCwI&feature=player_embedded#at=110

I will have to look when I get home, can't watch at work

It's an eye-opener.

The more I learn about him, the worse he is.
Before getting a dog and being on this forum, I used to think sun shone out of his back.
Now thanks to the forum and actually taking notice of his programmes, I can see he is a bully, god know what goes on behind the scenes.

Is this the one of him kicking? I'm sorry if I've ruined it for those yet to watch, but I refuse to watch anything like this. I did however read about him kicking a dog on another forum I use, I was going to cross post, but forgot.

Thats BAD ...

I haven't ever watched him and after that certainly won't how on earth can that be passed as training???

Wow thats opened my eyes to him..what a *bleep*

Cornish-Muscle wrote:Is this the one of him kicking? I'm sorry if I've ruined it for those yet to watch, but I refuse to watch anything like this. I did however read about him kicking a dog on another forum I use, I was going to cross post, but forgot.

Yes, it is - a whole load of different situations where he kicks many dogs. And that's training?

The video's caused quite a stir on the GSD forum I post on (that's where I got it from); opinions very divided.

Whats there opinion??? Being nosey lol x

Some are disgusted by it, but others are saying that if it turns the dog around then it's acceptable. My reply to that is, if you train a dog through fear, then sooner or later it will overcome that fear & then you have problems!

Never looked at it like that! Personally think he is a tw*t, and thats only from opinions on here, as I don't think I have seen him!

I really dont know what to think as I beleive that animals, people have to be managed safely and if that means redirecting with a kick then its better to have that then be forced to be pts cause there is no control there.
I think he does understand the phychology of the dog and I saw him seperate 2 dogs fighting which he did very effectively so I dont know what to think really

But using a kick just masks the problem.

All he does is cover up a behaviour, the dogs shut down and they don't actually learn anything. The unwanted behaviour seems to disappear - until CM (or the person 'correcting') the dog goes away, then the dogs revert to how they were before - the reason for the behaviour is still there so the behaviour will reoccur.

Yes I get that but the owners who go to him do so because they are at there wits end and usually have tried other methods (well thats what tv say) I have seen many ways of calming people and animals and sometimes a softly approach doesnt work

Visit any dog rescue organisation, or any dog rescue web site and you will find cases of dogs being rehomed because of his techniques.

http://beyondcesarmillan.weebly.com/bristol-university.html

Taken from above:

"Dr Rachel Casey, Senior Lecturer in Companion Animal Behaviour and Welfare at Bristol University, said: “The blanket assumption that every dog is motivated by some innate desire to control people and other dogs is frankly ridiculous. It hugely underestimates the complex communicative and learning abilities of dogs. It also leads to the use of coercive training techniques, which compromise welfare, and actually cause problem behaviours.

“In our referral clinic we very often see dogs which have learnt to show aggression to avoid anticipated punishment. Owners are often horrified when we explain that their dog is terrified of them, and is showing aggression because of the techniques they have used – but its not their fault when they have been advised to do so, for example by unqualified ‘behaviourists’ recommending such techniques.”

At Dogs Trust, the UK’s largest dog welfare charity, rehoming centre staff see the results of misguided dog training all the time. Veterinary Director Chris Laurence MBE, added: “We can tell when a dog comes in to us which has been subjected to the ‘dominance reduction technique’ so beloved of TV dog trainers. They can be very fearful, which can lead to aggression towards people.

“Sadly, many techniques used to teach a dog that his owner is leader of the pack is counter-productive; you won’t get a better behaved dog, but you will either end up with a dog so fearful it has suppressed all its natural behaviours and will just do nothing, or one so aggressive it’s dangerous to be around.”


The Dogs Trust is one of the largest Rescue organisations in this country - and they obviously have problems with dogs 'trained' in this way.

Sue


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#18 IP: 92.17.93.113 Today, 11:22 PM

Its all very confusing im just glad my 2 are balanced apart from the dog not liking other dogs they are a treasure to be around.
Wouldnt really know what to do if we have problems hope I dont ever come against them

gem wrote:Its all very confusing im just glad my 2 are balanced apart from the dog not liking other dogs they are a treasure to be around.
Wouldnt really know what to do if we have problems hope I dont ever come against them

same here

Any one can kick a dog and get it to do something, my 2 year old could do that. A "trainer" is some one who can turn a dog around without having to be intimadating x

I have been watching him as he is on every night over here in Western Australia. I went to watch the above clip and it says it has been taken off and can no longer be viewed..bummer ! ( Maybe HE took it off !! ) I can't believe he would treat a dog that way !!!! I am shocked !!

vanessa wrote:I have been watching him as he is on every night over here in Western Australia. I went to watch the above clip and it says it has been taken off and can no longer be viewed..bummer ! ( Maybe HE took it off !! ) I can't believe he would treat a dog that way !!!! I am shocked !!

So it has???????

I've Watched most of the episodes that were in that video but when you see it all together like that it's shocking. I hope it opens the eyes of those on here who think Cesar's way is the only way.

It's been deleted due to 'copyright'! Ha! They just didn't like loads of people seeing it - well, too late, they already have.

Says it all really doesnt it.

Read the following with an open mind & then tell us whether you think, in all honesty, CM's methods of training are right........

http://www.apdt.com/petowners/choose/dominancemyths.aspx
http://vetmedicine.about.com/b/2009/07/07/veterinary-behaviorists-take-a-stand-against-cesar-millan.htm

He is very popular here and I have read his book but take it all with a grain of salt. When I am out around other dog owner I hear the "shhhh" sound all the time Thanks to Cesar everyone here is a dog trainer....hahaha

I do believe that switching the dogs focus is a good thing but don't be a bully about it. Positive wins everytime.

The video was taken down so I couldn't watch it.

Caryll wrote:Read the following with an open mind & then tell us whether you think, in all honesty, CM's methods of training are right........

http://www.apdt.com/petowners/choose/dominancemyths.aspx
http://vetmedicine.about.com/b/2009/07/07/veterinary-behaviorists-take-a-stand-against-cesar-millan.htm

Read the first one and I agree with the article and you all. Cesar has one thing right though, Exercise your dog often.

yea i always go by a tired dog is a good dog, a untired or bored do can become a bad dog

Steve wrote:yea i always go by a tired dog is a good dog, a untired or bored do can become a bad dog

couldn't agree more!

suzyq505 wrote:He is very popular here and I have read his book but take it all with a grain of salt. When I am out around other dog owner I hear the "shhhh" sound all the time Thanks to Cesar everyone here is a dog trainer....hahaha

I do believe that switching the dogs focus is a good thing but don't be a bully about it. Positive wins everytime.

The video was taken down so I couldn't watch it.

we do the shhhhhhhhhhhhhh noise in our house, it's catchy and it makes billy stop and look.

I think another reason people aren't happy is the name he's given himself - "The Dog Whisperer".

I know that Monty Roberts isn't very happy, because he is the original "Horse Whisperer" and trains horses with clamness, gentleness and body language, whereas CM...............

I never noticed until now how much he used aggressive ways. But still I think he has saved many dogs from being pts. Im sure he is capable of doing this without being cruel, so don't understand why he does this, apart from tyring to get, what apears to be results straight away
As for the Monty, I don't think he cares what CM calls himself, otherwise he wouldn't have featured in the Dog Whisperer and worked along side CM for a whole episode.

BlueStaffBlue wrote:As for the Monty, I don't think he cares what CM calls himself, otherwise he wouldn't have featured in the Dog Whisperer and worked along side CM for a whole episode.

When was that, I didn't see that one! I just remember Monty saying that CM's methods weren't 'whispering'.

Long time ago.
They went to some farm and worked together. Monty worked with a wild horse and CM worked with dogs who were being aggressive towards the horses on the farm.
He seemed good friends with CM on that. Maybe he was paid good money or maybe thats where he watched CM and came to the conclusion that he didn't like his methods

Horses are wonderful creatures they follow each other Monty Roberts has a gift with them

He was very good in the program and the horse was completly wild so very impressive

BlueStaffBlue wrote:He was very good in the program and the horse was completly wild so very impressive

i remember seeing that, it was a good episode.

Just found this: Funny!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8Y3MbuDdvQ&feature=related

You can see the clip Caryll posted now, guess it's been put back up? I've watched his program and I had no idea really how aggressive he is. Seeing it all in one clip was certainly an eye opener!

That was very disturbing to say the least, I would never kick my dog, a firm no and time out yeah, but never a kick. The mother of these dogs wouldn't kick her pups.

He certainly is a very contraversial indivdual. I have read two of his books and believe that he has some valid points (rules of the house: no dominating a humans space, no food aggression, no snatching humand objects etc). I also find his tips on grooming usefull: still can't clean Suki's ears without a struggle though. I also strongly think that teaching an aggressive breed through violence is an extremly bad idea that can lead to a very bad outcome down the line.

I do however believe strongly that the human must be the pack leader because no matter how domesticated an animal is that they will always maintain an engrained pack mentality espically when they are scared or under alot of stress. During this time it is imperative that your dog recognize you as the boss and listen to your commands. This is espically true with a breed that has been portrayed so negativly both through legislation and in the media as all of the bull breeds have been.

With a dog that has been raised properly from puppyhood with a loving and responsible human a well balanced and socialized dog is eventually obtained through positive reinforcement.

Long post sorry. Where some of CM's negative publicity comes from is the fact he is given a small window of time to correct years of irresponsible upbringing in the dogs he interacts with. The dogs are conditioned to believe that acting out is the only way to get their humans to interact with them and burn off some of the energy they have pent up. So while again I am not an advocate of violence to train a dog there are occasions where negative reinforcement is the quicker way to achieve results.

So on a whole the best training method is to be a responsible owner and never let your dog reach a level where interaction is the only recourse. End of rant.

jstaff wrote:
I do however believe strongly that the human must be the pack leader because no matter how domesticated an animal is that they will always maintain an engrained pack mentality espically when they are scared or under alot of stress. During this time it is imperative that your dog recognize you as the boss and listen to your commands. This is espically true with a breed that has been portrayed so negativly both through legislation and in the media as all of the bull breeds have been.

A human cannot be a 'pack leader' as such. A dog will know who is a dog & who is a human, and he will treat each differently. So if you have more than 1 dog, they will form a pack hierarchy. However, they will do this quite differently to submitting to a human. I certainly believe that a dog's owners must be 'boss', but pack leader? No. It's a subtle difference, but the difference is there.

jstaff wrote:Long post sorry. Where some of CM's negative publicity comes from is the fact he is given a small window of time to correct years of irresponsible upbringing in the dogs he interacts with. The dogs are conditioned to believe that acting out is the only way to get their humans to interact with them and burn off some of the energy they have pent up. So while again I am not an advocate of violence to train a dog there are occasions where negative reinforcement is the quicker way to achieve results.

I think that violence is rarely, if ever, necessary to train a dog. However, even given his 'small window of time' he is dishonest to the viewers. He doesn't mention the fact that he uses e-collars & prong collars. He hides the fact that he uses kicking to stop certain unwanted behaviour (and in my mind, there is no point in kicking a dog - sooner or later he will retaliate!).

A human cannot be a 'pack leader' as such. A dog will know who is a dog & who is a human, and he will treat each differently. So if you have more than 1 dog, they will form a pack hierarchy. However, they will do this quite differently to submitting to a human. I certainly believe that a dog's owners must be 'boss', but pack leader? No. It's a subtle difference, but the difference is there.

I think that violence is rarely, if ever, necessary to train a dog. However, even given his 'small window of time' he is dishonest to the viewers. He doesn't mention the fact that he uses e-collars & prong collars. He hides the fact that he uses kicking to stop certain unwanted behaviour (and in my mind, there is no point in kicking a dog - sooner or later he will retaliate!).

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Caryll, excellent points. Boss is the more consice descriptive term and I also firmly believe that viloence and fear is never a good training tool or method of leadership. I find it refreshing that contriversal topics such as this can be discussed here without deragotory comments or emotions getting out of hand. Usually CM is such a contriversial topic that their is a love it or leave it attitude.

Hahahaha! If you look back through some of the more controversial threads you'll see some rather aggressive posts, I'm sure!

But no, we don't like it to get out of hand or to result in name-calling etc. After all, we all have different opinions (it'd be a boring world if we didn't) and we all have the right to put those opinions across!

Maybe not everything he does is perfect but he's a great character and he definately knows how to act around a dog, a wild dog. And his programme proves it. He doesnt kick the dog to hurt him, he simply shows who's the boss. Yes maybe its not exactly necessary but like I said, he's not doing it to hurt him. Personally I think he's amazing at what he does, and I find every single episode of his programme very interesting.

I don't doubt that he has a 'way' with dogs.

I just don't like some of his methods, and the whole 'pack leader' theory has largely been dropped now by most behaviourists & trainers. It's out dated & often quite wrong.

As to the kicking not being done to hurt, if I remember rightly the poor labrador (I think it was a labrador) actually left the floor with the strength of the kick! A kick is a kick, and if you catch a sensitive area you'll hurt the dog.

Whether it's a hard kick or not, kicking is not a way to train a dog.

i have heard of him,but never really scene his programe. I would understand nudging a dog with the side of your leg to distract there attention from another dog, but why would you need to kick them like that ? Shorley blindsiding a dog like that would petrify them no matter what size or breed.

this sort of thing realy hacks me off. Dogs are'nt that hard to train, if you can be bothered to spend the time with them. My Dad is disabled and we have trianed jake to pick things up and give them back to him, if he drops them, and pull his sleave to help him take his jacket off. He has even learned to fold the news paper over when he takes it up stairs. He's never been aggressive towards other dogs and shy's away from cats, so it makes me wonder what these 'owners' have (not) been doing with their dogs.

And if some took hold of my dog and did that, i would quite possibly knock the p*ss out of him.

Rant over.

Jake sounds amazing. Is he an assistant dog? He should be x

janey wrote:Jake sounds amazing. Is he an assistant dog? He should be x

No, my Dad is with him all day so he's spent the time teaching him certain things. He does seem to get the idea really quickly though. He does only do the jacket sleeve thing with my dad though, i have tried to get him to do it in the past and he just sits looking at me, as if to say 'DO IT YOURSELF'