Territorial of food etc.-what you think.

This is not about Staffy,but hope you don't mind.
I'm working as a nanny,my employers have a Labradoodle,female 6yrs old. When I've started my job with them they told me that Scout ( that her name ) is overprotective of food,so every one is involved in feeding ( they have 4 kids: 14,13,11 and 9). They said that is better not to come close her when she eats. When I've started bring Debo with me I've noticed that is not only food she territorial of. It's toys,bed, people etc. Few weeks ago they got another puppy,female. From the start they showed the older dog that she is their favourite and top dog and the new pup,that she is the beta dog ( they are in to that). So I think they've made things worse by letting the older dog to protect her staff,like toys. When ever the puppy wanted to play with the toys they let the older dog get in charge. So she did by growling,showing teeth. I've never thought it was ok to do. And today we had a situation. The puppy was playing with her rawhide bone and the older dog was trying to take it away from her. The youngest son asked me if he can give the older dog her own bone. I said it's fine,so he did. The dog took it to her bed. The boy went there to check on her few minutes later and she growled at him. I could tell he was scared. I went to the dog and took the bone away. They told me before that the older dog ,when she was younger growled at them,they got it sorted somehow. I think by letting the older dog to protect her staff they making things worse. By doing that they making her thing that the puppy is something she should be aware of. And now she takes on kids as well.

I think it's wrong to treat one dog differently to another, it could definitely cause problems, and sounds like the dog already had some issues to begin with. Loki used to be possessive over bones and things like that, since he was really young, and it's only been very recently I've finally gotten to a point where he drops them for me when I tell him to (if I have chicken) and not growl. Sounds problematic could you have a word with them about the dog growling at the kid, just to let them know?

Yes it's not advised to treat two dogs anyways different as it can create problems between them. Sometimes it's a good idea when feeding a dog that can become possessive of food to hold the bowl whilst he/she is eating, obviously only if it's safe to do so.

Thank you. I did tell mum about it,she said,she's not happy about it and it did happen before when the dog was younger. They have this trainer,who loves " leader pack " theory and told them to make the older dog feel special,don't let the puppy play with the older dog's toys. They also use "alfa eats first" technic. So who ever feeds the dog has to pretend to eat it from it bowl . But advised me not to come close to the dog while she's eating. I don't like the whole pack leader theory,it's just mess up with the dog's head.

Food aggression and possessiveness are two of the most dangerous behaviours in a dog. They cause unexpected snap responses in any situation, in the house with toys and food and out on walks with rubbish they find. I saw a GSD have a go at another dog over a disposable BBQ next to a bin once.

It needs sorting ASAP. That dog isn’t seeing them as any kind of alpha at all. They need to throw that idea out the window and get it to see them as providers who can give and take away things whenever they wish or someone or something is going to get bitten.

jola139 wrote: I don't like the whole pack leader theory,it's just mess up with the dog's head.

You've hit the nail on the head there.

Things like eating first or going through doors first (other than from a safety point of view) makes no difference to how a dog perceives its owners.

I can't abide food/possession aggression & I know in the past I've banged on about it (sorry to all those who've heard this before), and I just won't allow it. An ex bf many years ago had the most soft, friendly Labrador you could possibly wish for. BUT. He was food aggressive. Now, this bf had a young toddler from his previous relationship & the dog was very good with her. One day, the child had some sweets & dropped them. The dog picked them up & the toddler tried to take them back........need I go on?

It's easy to train a pup not to be possessive, but much harder an older dog.

To be honest, as it isn't your dog there's very little you can do other than make sure the kids (and everybody else, including Debo & the pup!) stay away from the dog when there's food or toys around.

Didn't you say you were leaving soon, anyway?

oooo gosh!

i couldnt comment on advice the best way to sort this problem as i have never had to go through this my self BUT if you had children why would you 'train' your dog to do this?!? one thing we always did with tyke was take his food away, put my hand in his bowl etc etc and when ryan got to an age we did the same as sometimes it only takes a split second and something can go wrong (not saying that we leave ryan and tyke alone when its his tea time at all!!)

how is this working out with four kids a posesive dog and a new puppy?!

sorry not been able to advice anything!

jola139 wrote:. They also use "alfa eats first" technic. So who ever feeds the dog has to pretend to eat it from it bowl . But advised me not to come close to the dog while she's eating. I don't like the whole pack leader theory,it's just mess up with the dog's head.

ask them this,
When ever have you seen a pack of Wolves form an orderly line by rank to eat a fresh kill? they hunt together and feed together and have even been known to take food to an injured member of the pack.
Even the guy that did the reasearch and who's books started the Alpha theory is back tracking.
here are a few of his quotes about it all
To quote David Mech…

'The concept of the alpha wolf is well ingrained in the popular wolf literature at least partly because of my book "The Wolf: Ecology and Behavior of an Endangered Species," written in 1968, published in 1970, republished in paperback in 1981, and currently still in print, despite my numerous pleas to the publisher to stop publishing it. Although most of the book's info is still accurate, much is outdated. We have learned more about wolves in the last 40 years then in all of previous history'.


'One of the outdated pieces of information is the concept of the alpha wolf. "Alpha" implies competing with others and becoming top dog by winning a contest or battle. However, most wolves who lead packs achieved their position simply by mating and producing pups, which then became their pack. In other words they are merely breeders, or parents, and that's all we call them today, the "breeding male," "breeding female," or "male parent," "female parent," or the "adult male" or "adult female." In the rare packs that include more than one breeding animal, the "dominant breeder" can be called that, and any breeding daughter can be called a "subordinate breeder."

And from another extract of Mr. Mech’s…’

'However, in natural wolf packs, the alpha male or female are merely the breeding animals, the parents of the pack, and dominance contests with other wolves are rare, if they exist at all…The only consistent demonstration of rank in natural packs is the animals' postures during social interaction. Dominant wolves assume the classic canid standing posture with tail up at least horizontally, and subordinate or submissive individuals lower themselves and "cringe" (Darwin 1877). In fact, submission itself may be as important as dominance in terms of promoting friendly relations or reducing social distance'.

Thanks for putting that up, Nathan. The 'pack leader' theory really irritates me!

What annoys me most is that I was as convinced as most of the others until I actually sat down & thought sensibly about it!

Caryll wrote:

What annoys me most is that I was as convinced as most of the others until I actually sat down & thought sensibly about it!

Same here, because I was told that's how things were. but like you I did some reading and found a whole different world of understanding about it.

I had my knuckles rapped by a very knowledgeable lady on a GSD forum who put me right & gave me things to read about it - plus she pointed me in the right direction for positive reinforcement.

Yes Caryll,I'm leaving next week. But it's difficult to watch how people can be blind. The possesion is only of food with people and the puppy, toys possesion is with the puppy. But this what they teach her. She's a sweetheart with the kids,very patient ,when it's come to food ,there is problem. It's not my dog but it's hard to watch.

I know, it's hard to see what you know could be coming & not say anything. But if you do say something then (from what you've said in the past) they're likely to just tell you to mind your own business & they know what they're doing.

So anoyed. Just came to work and ask mum about the dog, she said "She's fine, I don't think Scout knew it was Theo,she just tought it was the puppy,I wouldn't worry". Reall?! As you said,it wont be my business from next week. But how stupid can you be? And she was affraid of Debo just from looking at him.

Caryll wrote:

jola139 wrote: I don't like the whole pack leader theory,it's just mess up with the dog's head.

It's easy to train a pup not to be possessive, but much harder an older dog.

How do you train a puppy not to be possessive? Because honestly, I can't see where I went wrong with Loki. Ever since within the first week we got him, I made him wait for his food or toys or whatever else, and I'd only take them off him when it was time to stop playing. Unless taking it off him and not giving him a treat in return is where I went wrong?

Unfortunately, there isn't much that can be done you can point them in the right direction, but if they're too narrow-minded or arrogant, no amount of evidence will tell them otherwise. Can't believe they think it's OK though. And I'm pretty sure even going by the pack leader theory, you're not meant to let a dog know it's dominant over anyone, even another dog. Presumably you want both dogs to be equally last, so it sounds like they're doing that wrong even.

What we did with Debo was everytime we gave him his food,we told him to leave,took the bowl away and after few seconds put it back. Same with toys. So he knew that he will have it back.The first command he knew after sit was leave.

do they do much with her? labs and poodles need a lot of exercise and brain stimulation, it sounds bored.

jola139 wrote:What we did with Debo was everytime we gave him his food,we told him to leave,took the bowl away and after few seconds put it back. Same with toys. So he knew that he will have it back.The first command he knew after sit was leave.

this is what we did with tyke. and also when ryan came along. tyke can has his toys when im about and ryna can only play with tyke when i am about. ryans can go take a toy of tyke and he has better leave command with ryan than me!!

jola139 wrote:What we did with Debo was everytime we gave him his food,we told him to leave,took the bowl away and after few seconds put it back. Same with toys. So he knew that he will have it back.The first command he knew after sit was leave.

I did that with Loki but he still ended up being possessive. Weird. Least it got sorted out in the end, now just a case of making sure it doesn't go back to it again.

Hayley,she has quicky in the morning,then about 1h with me at 12. That's it. Not sure how weekends look like. They stoped her training long time ago. Their trainer is like guru for them,what ever he says it's like bible. I stoped taking Debo with me long time ago,because of that dog. Yesterday my OH gave me lift to work so the dogs can have a nice play on fields. First we got in the garden, both dogs fine, I went inside and my OH didn't notice that Debo fallowed me. The dog run after Debo, pin him down,growling, teeth showing,it looked really bad. Luckly Debo didn't react.just stayed down until I removed the dog. I've got best dog ever. I think Debo knows his strenght but decided not to use it . It could go very wrong.

what i would do in this sitiuation is buy a big leather thick glove and and hold my hand in front of the dogs food until it backs off and become a little more submissive about food it will be all about patiance may take awhile. It not about been boss it about teaching boundries.