Do you smack your dog?

First topic message reminder :

Hi all,
Just wanted to know where some of you stand on smacking your dog and your opinion on the matter.
Personally if Gary is naughty i accept that hes young and he will have his tantrums but on occasions i feel i have no choice to smack his bottom with newspaper.
my other half doesnt like hitting the dog and cant bring her self to do it so when hes playing up its always "Dan come sort your dog out" then when hes behaving its her dog haha.

I want to make it clear that i dont strike him too hard, i dont strike him every time he steps out of line and that Gary seems really happy at home, and when i come back on the weekends he gets really excied to see me so its good that i dont scare him and he still knows that i love him.
I usually only smack gary on two occasions and there both reasons that one protects us and others and the second protects himself.

1) if he bites as you have seen in the gallery hes got a good set of nashers on him and i dont want him been an adult dog and using his teeth its something i want to nip in the bud whilst he is young.

2) Chewing electronic cables, again firm no and the news paper because id hate to not be in the room and he chews the cable for the telly or something and hurts him self.

The only reason i smack him is because i love him and i wouldnt want him hurt him self or anbody else and get destroyed. Its not something i enjoy and when he goes to sulk after i feel really guilty but its something i feel needs to do untill he learns that what he is doing is wrong.
In a way its good that my other half wont smack him and she leaves it to me because gary sees me as the leader of the pack and boss of the house and its god that he knows his place.

anbody else smack there dog?

mickgill wrote:My Dad always smacked his dogs so i have smacked them in the past , i used work terriers up to six at a time , i never thought any were scared of me though i just thought they knew their place , it was the way i was brought up and don't forget when i went to school i was smacked by my teachers i wasn't scared of them either just had respect .

Im older now i don't work terriers any more and i don't smack Duke i use more modern day methods , i still don't believe a gentle smack does any harm and i don't believe it will make the dog scared , i know of two Staff owners who use a gentle smack works for them and they love their Staffs .

Yes, I was smacked as a child. It made me resentful & deceitful - I wouldn't own up to anything because I knew I'd be smacked!

Smacking, whether it's children or animals, is counter productive. A dog will do something for you because it's scared of the consequences, not because it wants to please you!

1) why are you comparing the way humans and dogs learn? Different species, different evolutionary paths, different social habits.
2) a scared dog is a dog that doesn't learn, its brain shuts down and all it wants is to avoid the pain. It might stop the unwanted behaviour at that moment, but it won't learn. This has been proven through scientific testing as has been quoted a few times in this topic already.
3) top dog trainers use negative punishment and positive rewards. Once again, the numbers and results are overwhelming and this happens even in "tough" institutions like police and military dog training. Look it up!
4) dogs know their place instinctively and just need firm leadership and decision making from their humans. It's in their DNA to be obedient and look to humans for direction. Generation upon generation of breeding obedient dogs and not breeding rebellious dogs.
5) it's very hard to gauge how hard to smack a dog as punishment, especially playful, high pain threshold dogs like bull terriers. How hard do you have to slap a dog for it to cross from play to punishment?
6) do you want to be loved or feared? If the latter, why get a pet?

Mani wrote:1) why are you comparing the way humans and dogs learn? Different species, different evolutionary paths, different social habits.

I wouldn't generally compare - but when it comes to violent behaviour, dogs & children act reasonably similarly. ie they will resent/be fearful of further violence.

Mani wrote:5) it's very hard to gauge how hard to smack a dog as punishment, especially playful, high pain threshold dogs like bull terriers. How hard do you have to slap a dog for it to cross from play to punishment?

Although the bull breeds have a high pain threshold, they are actually extremely sensitive & will often react far more to violence than other breeds. It's very easy to create a hand shy bull breed!

Mani wrote:6) do you want to be loved or feared? If the latter, why get a pet?

Totally agree!

The only time I've ever slapped one of my dogs is as a last resort. I would never do it when there is any other way or method. The only time I have slapped them has been when they have attacked one another and are holding on so hard that they won't let go. Slapping them on the top of the head doesn't mean they let go because of the pain (it would take a lot more than that to actually hurt a staff) but it seems to snap them out of it if you give a big bellow at the same time and tell them to leave. We have had incidents in the past where Tali has gone for Meg or Skibadee and Tali have had a silly little argument which has escalated. I know for a fact had I not stepped in an intervened, and got bitten for my troubles there would have been many more injuries to the dogs. I would never intentionally frighten or hurt my dogs and am all for positive reinforcement. I just wouldn't want one of my dogs to kill the other! Being staffords they are fine afterwards and all slot back into their respective places in the pack, I don't think they see it as unfair or get frightened by it. I have never had them shy away from my hand afterwards. I think because they are being violent they see it as a fitting punishment, I do hate to do it but when those staffords get in their red zone theres not much to get them out of it. Sometimes a harsh word or a raised voice stops these conflicts but when teeth hit flesh sometimes you have to stoop to their level Never with a puppy though, thats a bit different...

Mani wrote:5) it's very hard to gauge how hard to smack a dog as punishment, especially playful, high pain threshold dogs like bull terriers. How hard do you have to slap a dog for it to cross from play to punishment?

I think the emotion in it is very different, your dog knows if you are playing or if he is being punished. Same as if you tripped over your dog and hurt him or kicked him...

Caryll wrote:

mickgill wrote:My Dad always smacked his dogs so i have smacked them in the past , i used work terriers up to six at a time , i never thought any were scared of me though i just thought they knew their place , it was the way i was brought up and don't forget when i went to school i was smacked by my teachers i wasn't scared of them either just had respect .

Im older now i don't work terriers any more and i don't smack Duke i use more modern day methods , i still don't believe a gentle smack does any harm and i don't believe it will make the dog scared , i know of two Staff owners who use a gentle smack works for them and they love their Staffs .

Yes, I was smacked as a child. It made me resentful & deceitful - I wouldn't own up to anything because I knew I'd be smacked!

Smacking, whether it's children or animals, is counter productive. A dog will do something for you because it's scared of the consequences, not because it wants to please you!

I have seen people at school threatened with a smack and own up to doing something they have been accused of , we have to look at the older generation and we know they hit their dogs , i have to say back in the 60s the kennels were not full of rescued dogs and i don't recall to many dog attacks whether it be on humans or other dogs, did these people training their dogs by smacking make things that way ? possibly, i have admitted that i have smacked dogs in the past not hard i would never maim a dog and i have to say the smack worked , two of my terriers once got into a fight with each other now no amount of shouting orders could stop them , i stupidly grabbed one by the back of the neck and managed to dragged him off only for the other to lunge at him , he got me on my finger and it was hanging off, they then set to again , my wife was in a blind panic she hit one over the head with a fruit bowl it stopped fighting she threatened the other with it , it also stopped, i had to have my finger stitched back on, if she had not have took that spur of the moment action one dog would surely have died , so sometimes i suppose a smack is necessary.

You cant say that a smack made less do attacks. There were less people then, less dogs then, less "macho" blokes etc. There were less rescues and less money to look after dogs, most dogs roamed the streets and starved to death or were taken "to the farm"

too many variables to be able to say "smacking stops bad behaviour"

mickgill wrote:(...)we have to look at the older generation and we know they hit their dogs , i have to say back in the 60s the kennels were not full of rescued dogs and i don't recall to many dog attacks whether it be on humans or other dogs,(...)

Well you were born in 1959 or 1960 according to your profile, so I imagine you didn't pay a lot of attention to kennel occupancy rates or dog attack rates back when you were a child. Either way, maybe it was because a big fuss is made of dog attacks these days compared to 'back in the day' of low media coverage?

Mani wrote:

mickgill wrote:(...)we have to look at the older generation and we know they hit their dogs , i have to say back in the 60s the kennels were not full of rescued dogs and i don't recall to many dog attacks whether it be on humans or other dogs,(...)

Well you were born in 1959 or 1960 according to your profile, so I imagine you didn't pay a lot of attention to kennel occupancy rates or dog attack rates back when you were a child. Either way, maybe it was because a big fuss is made of dog attacks these days compared to 'back in the day' of low media coverage?

its also true that if you got bit by a dog it was probably your fault, should not have annoyed it or not come into the yard it lived in. now its a big massive OMG ITS A DANGER DOG IT NEEDS TO BE KILLED AND THE OWNER NEEDS PUT IN JAIL.

when really it should still be, what did you do to provoke it?

Nosipho wrote:

Mani wrote:5) it's very hard to gauge how hard to smack a dog as punishment, especially playful, high pain threshold dogs like bull terriers. How hard do you have to slap a dog for it to cross from play to punishment?

I think the emotion in it is very different, your dog knows if you are playing or if he is being punished. Same as if you tripped over your dog and hurt him or kicked him...

That's a good point, I've managed to kick Loki in the face dozens of times because he sticks his head right in front of where my foot's going to be just to sniff something...and he's never bothered by it then again, he has no shame, he never looks guilty or cares about getting told off. Still, it is a fine line between it being too soft to make a difference, and harsh enough to scare them. Besides, there shouldn't be any emotion behind it, presumably. I mean, when dogs tell each other off, they don't get angry or upset or guilty, do they? I'm not saying they don't feel emotions, they certainly do, but I've always gotten the feeling that a lot of the time dogs don't listen to people, it's because they're telling them off out of frustration, and the dog not understanding that.

Hayley wrote:

Mani wrote:

mickgill wrote:(...)we have to look at the older generation and we know they hit their dogs , i have to say back in the 60s the kennels were not full of rescued dogs and i don't recall to many dog attacks whether it be on humans or other dogs,(...)

Well you were born in 1959 or 1960 according to your profile, so I imagine you didn't pay a lot of attention to kennel occupancy rates or dog attack rates back when you were a child. Either way, maybe it was because a big fuss is made of dog attacks these days compared to 'back in the day' of low media coverage?

its also true that if you got bit by a dog it was probably your fault, should not have annoyed it or not come into the yard it lived in. now its a big massive OMG ITS A DANGER DOG IT NEEDS TO BE KILLED AND THE OWNER NEEDS PUT IN JAIL.

when really it should still be, what did you do to provoke it?

I said it was my fault my stupidly grabbing one dog at the back of the neck in an attempt to stop it fighting, i did nothing to provoke it at all some dogs do not get on and they fight, once two dogs start a real fight no amount of shouting orders will stop them in my experience so what's the next step, let them fight to the death ? or rip each other to bits ? , a smack can shock them into stopping and it did it my case, i used to help out at a local dog kennels in the 60s and im sure there were not half as many dogs in there as there are today, if your saying it's fine for a dog to bite someone who enters their yard, sorry i don't agree what if a kid has kicked his ball over and gone to get it ? is that fine if the dog bites the child ? , i know this my Dad would have been 93 if he was still here today , he kept dogs all his life and yes he smacked them he didn't batter them just smacked them if he thought it was necessary , his dogs were very well trained in the show ring and the field, i never saw an unhappy one in his kennel .

Nosipho wrote:The only time I've ever slapped one of my dogs is as a last resort. I would never do it when there is any other way or method. The only time I have slapped them has been when they have attacked one another and are holding on so hard that they won't let go. Slapping them on the top of the head doesn't mean they let go because of the pain (it would take a lot more than that to actually hurt a staff) but it seems to snap them out of it if you give a big bellow at the same time and tell them to leave. We have had incidents in the past where Tali has gone for Meg or Skibadee and Tali have had a silly little argument which has escalated. I know for a fact had I not stepped in an intervened, and got bitten for my troubles there would have been many more injuries to the dogs. I would never intentionally frighten or hurt my dogs and am all for positive reinforcement. I just wouldn't want one of my dogs to kill the other! Being staffords they are fine afterwards and all slot back into their respective places in the pack, I don't think they see it as unfair or get frightened by it. I have never had them shy away from my hand afterwards. I think because they are being violent they see it as a fitting punishment, I do hate to do it but when those staffords get in their red zone theres not much to get them out of it. Sometimes a harsh word or a raised voice stops these conflicts but when teeth hit flesh sometimes you have to stoop to their level Never with a puppy though, thats a bit different...

Not pleasant to have your own dogs fighting, and I know the following method will gross everyone out, but....
poke yer finger up their bum
Long story but my daughter in law took two pits to the beach and they started fighting, she assures me it works and she's not a big girl so saw it as her last resort...

mickgill wrote: i have admitted that i have smacked dogs in the past not hard i would never maim a dog and i have to say the smack worked , two of my terriers once got into a fight with each other now no amount of shouting orders could stop them , i stupidly grabbed one by the back of the neck and managed to dragged him off only for the other to lunge at him , he got me on my finger and it was hanging off, they then set to again , my wife was in a blind panic she hit one over the head with a fruit bowl it stopped fighting she threatened the other with it , it also stopped, i had to have my finger stitched back on, if she had not have took that spur of the moment action one dog would surely have died , so sometimes i suppose a smack is necessary.

But this thread wasn't about dogs fighting - it was smacking because a pup nips or is too rough. We've gone totally off topic.

Of course, if two dogs are fighting you do whatever is necessary to seperate them - that isn't punishment, it's preventing further damage & is totally different!

But as a general rule, no dog or puppy should be smacked for simple wrongdoing. They should be shown what is wrong with what they did & encouraged to do what is right. Not smacked.

i will admit i have given Silva a tap on the bottom before. I definately dont say its a good thing. There are many other methods to use (not that i am an expert). Unfortunately for us we have a super confident and stubborn dog ( told my many trainers), he is not intimidated by much.

Silent treatment, isolation, all that less physical stuff didnt work, and believe me we tried. What we found to work was pinnig him down into the submissive position and placing the hand around the throat like the pack leader would do. Sometimes using quite a bit of preasure. It didnt take to long till he learnt. he gets up every time wagging his tail but knows he pushed the limit. Of course this is used for if he bites. As he is getting older 'NO' seems to work more or less for other behaviour.

sorry for the long post.lol

mickgill wrote:
I said it was my fault my stupidly grabbing one dog at the back of the neck in an attempt to stop it fighting, i did nothing to provoke it at all some dogs do not get on and they fight, once two dogs start a real fight no amount of shouting orders will stop them in my experience so what's the next step, let them fight to the death ? or rip each other to bits ? , a smack can shock them into stopping and it did it my case, i used to help out at a local dog kennels in the 60s and im sure there were not half as many dogs in there as there are today, if your saying it's fine for a dog to bite someone who enters their yard, sorry i don't agree what if a kid has kicked his ball over and gone to get it ? is that fine if the dog bites the child ? , i know this my Dad would have been 93 if he was still here today , he kept dogs all his life and yes he smacked them he didn't batter them just smacked them if he thought it was necessary , his dogs were very well trained in the show ring and the field, i never saw an unhappy one in his kennel .

technically you provoked it by getting in the way, much like any other dog would have. no you dont let them fight on you do have to step in, but if you are bit it is because you got in the way (and not saying thats you fault)

as for coming into a yard, no dogs should not bite anyone entering the yard but parents also need to teach their child that they cant just go into someone elses property without permission

Hayley i stand by my belief that a dog should not bite anyone just because they have entered their yard but that is going off topic so maybe thats a debate for another day .

Caryll wrote:

mickgill wrote:

But as a general rule, no dog or puppy should be smacked for simple wrongdoing. They should be shown what is wrong with what they did & encouraged to do what is right. Not smacked.

There is no General rule though Caryll , that's the point im trying to make some people train their dogs with a smack others don't, there are still many who believe a smack works and many who don't, i have been to dog shows and seen people smack their dogs as a way of calming them before they go into the show ring , my Father in Law used to show German Shepperd's and ive seen him do that along with other people who used to show dogs .

People have different ways in the way they treat dogs, i used to know a guy who kept gun dogs and highly trained they were as well , if one of his dogs bit a child he would shoot it i kid you not, many other keepers of working dogs or racing dogs would shoot them dead if they were no longer of use, now i don't agree with that never have but it's what goes on in the dog world, and smacking goes on in the dog world some might not like it but it happens i think it always will .

Silva wrote:Silent treatment, isolation, all that less physical stuff didnt work, and believe me we tried. What we found to work was pinnig him down into the submissive position and placing the hand around the throat like the pack leader would do. Sometimes using quite a bit of preasure. It didnt take to long till he learnt. he gets up every time wagging his tail but knows he pushed the limit. Of course this is used for if he bites. As he is getting older 'NO' seems to work more or less for other behaviour.

What you did there was not only dangerous to both you and your dog, but bordering on cruel. To hold a dog down by the throat with 'quite a bit of pressure' is not the way to train it. He gets up wagging his tail because he is scared - tail wagging doesn't just indicate happiness, it indicates fear submission.

mickgill wrote:There is no General rule though Caryll , that's the point im trying to make some people train their dogs with a smack others don't, there are still many who believe a smack works and many who don't, i have been to dog shows and seen people smack their dogs as a way of calming them before they go into the show ring , my Father in Law used to show German Shepperd's and ive seen him do that along with other people who used to show dogs .

People have different ways in the way they treat dogs, i used to know a guy who kept gun dogs and highly trained they were as well , if one of his dogs bit a child he would shoot it i kid you not, many other keepers of working dogs or racing dogs would shoot them dead if they were no longer of use, now i don't agree with that never have but it's what goes on in the dog world, and smacking goes on in the dog world some might not like it but it happens i think it always will .

I don't know what shows you or your father have been to or when, but in all the shows I have been to (open or championship) and exhibited in, I have never seen a dog smacked, or hit in any way, to calm it down! If I saw that happen I would report it to the show committee & that person would be hauled before the KC for unnacceptable behaviour at a dog show.

I have also known working gun dogs & none of them were ever trained with violence, and none would ever dream of hurting a child!

I honestly can't believe what I've read on this thread - that so many of you think that hitting a dog is ok.

mickgill wrote:i have been to dog shows and seen people smack their dogs as a way of calming them before they go into the show ring , my Father in Law used to show German Shepperd's and ive seen him do that along with other people who used to show dogs .

Basically you're saying that because it used to happen it's ok?

Years ago (and you're roughly the same age as me, so you'll remember it) people thought it was ok to open their front door in the morning & let their dog roam wherever it wanted until it got hungry & came home for its dinner - does that mean it's acceptable now? Of course not. We change, we learn, we progress. New ideas and new research give us better ways of doing things.

hi,
hiting wont work, and you said you hit it but you dont hurt it, if thats the case whats the point in you hiting it atall, its not going to learn its being bad if your basicaly peting it.
im not saying you need to hit it harder , im saying dont hit it.
there are lots of ways to teach your dog how to do things and how not to do things.
i found making noises to let the dog know if your angry with what its about to do, or has done.
if you see the pup going near wires to chew them make a loud noise that is unplesant to the pup and move it away from the wire. even put a movment sensor where the wires are so if it gose near them it sets the noise off and distracts the dog. once you got the dogs atention give it an alternitive like a chew toy, of if its going to pee make a noise and take it out to where it can pee. and never let them play bite or mouth . it just gets harder to stop them the older they are when its mouthing your stoping.
i have no doubt you love yout pet , and you just want it to be a good dog, there is no short cut to teach the dog how to behave , it will learn gradualy by the reaction it gets from you when its doing things, if the dog is doing somthing wrong you need to be there when its doing it and tell it off then, if you try telling it off after it wont know why its being punished. when its a bit older they will know what they have done wrong if you take them back to it and show them what your angry about, but yours is a bit young to learn after the fact what its dont wrong
you being on here and asking about things is great , and im shure you are and will be a great parent to the dog .
i have went on a bit in this post and i hope i havent sounded as if i know it all as i dont , im still learning alot about animals and my wee girl kye is teaching me new things all the time about dogs ,
good luck to you and solomon .

Caryll wrote:

mickgill wrote:i have been to dog shows and seen people smack their dogs as a way of calming them before they go into the show ring , my Father in Law used to show German Shepperd's and ive seen him do that along with other people who used to show dogs .

Basically you're saying that because it used to happen it's ok?

Years ago (and you're roughly the same age as me, so you'll remember it) people thought it was ok to open their front door in the morning & let their dog roam wherever it wanted until it got hungry & came home for its dinner - does that mean it's acceptable now? Of course not. We change, we learn, we progress. New ideas and new research give us better ways of doing things.

Im saying it was accepted back then Caryll not that it was ok , i lived in a Lancashire coal and cotton town i don't recall to many people letting their dogs roam, i accept we change and we learn some of us but not all of us, some people will smack dogs for as long as they own them they wont change i can't change that non of us can .

I'm happy to admit that i punched chance (not my full force) when he and a rottie were fighting, to get his attention to split them up.

But i would never do it in normal situations like him misbehaving and only ever in a last resort like above.

mickgill wrote:Hayley i stand by my belief that a dog should not bite anyone just because they have entered their yard but that is going off topic so maybe thats a debate for another day .

i havent disputed that though i agree with you lol

mickgill wrote:Hayley i stand by my belief that a dog should not bite anyone just because they have entered their yard but that is going off topic so maybe thats a debate for another day .

unfortunately it isn't that simple, alot of dogs WILL bite for this reason, including my Chance, which is why you need to be a responsible owner and not allow them to hurt anyone else.

Caryll wrote:

Silva wrote:Silent treatment, isolation, all that less physical stuff didnt work, and believe me we tried. What we found to work was pinnig him down into the submissive position and placing the hand around the throat like the pack leader would do. Sometimes using quite a bit of preasure. It didnt take to long till he learnt. he gets up every time wagging his tail but knows he pushed the limit. Of course this is used for if he bites. As he is getting older 'NO' seems to work more or less for other behaviour.

What you did there was not only dangerous to both you and your dog, but bordering on cruel. To hold a dog down by the throat with 'quite a bit of pressure' is not the way to train it. He gets up wagging his tail because he is scared - tail wagging doesn't just indicate happiness, it indicates fear submission.

mickgill wrote:There is no General rule though Caryll , that's the point im trying to make some people train their dogs with a smack others don't, there are still many who believe a smack works and many who don't, i have been to dog shows and seen people smack their dogs as a way of calming them before they go into the show ring , my Father in Law used to show German Shepperd's and ive seen him do that along with other people who used to show dogs .

People have different ways in the way they treat dogs, i used to know a guy who kept gun dogs and highly trained they were as well , if one of his dogs bit a child he would shoot it i kid you not, many other keepers of working dogs or racing dogs would shoot them dead if they were no longer of use, now i don't agree with that never have but it's what goes on in the dog world, and smacking goes on in the dog world some might not like it but it happens i think it always will .

I don't know what shows you or your father have been to or when, but in all the shows I have been to (open or championship) and exhibited in, I have never seen a dog smacked, or hit in any way, to calm it down! If I saw that happen I would report it to the show committee & that person would be hauled before the KC for unnacceptable behaviour at a dog show.

I have also known working gun dogs & none of them were ever trained with violence, and none would ever dream of hurting a child!

I honestly can't believe what I've read on this thread - that so many of you think that hitting a dog is ok.

I never said they were trained with violence i said some met an unexpected death by way of the shotgun, near to the coal mine where i once worked was a Racing Greyhound kennel in the middle of a field it must have had 30 Greyhounds in it , those that did not make the grade were shot no if's no buts, it was like that for years doesn't make it right of course but that's how it was .

woops sorry. you dont hold him by the throat. You hold one had on his side and use the other hand to replicate a pack leaders mouth. If a dog bit another dog in the pack aggressively, that is exactly what will happen?
I am pretty sure ceasar millan teaches that technique?? I dont think he would be in his position these days if he was an advocate for animal cruelty.
(I prob just opened another can of worms as he prob has his haters.lol)

I understand every one has different views. He doesnt cry, he doesnt tuck his tail, doesnt fold his ears back and crouch away. He wags, licks, and everything but show fear. I would rather have a submissive dog who respects the pack leader when they cross that line, then a dog that bites my 2 year old daughter on the face. I know he is just a pup and playing but he has sharp teeth and prob out weighs my daughter.
I must add this is not a regular thing. We have done it maybe three times, and he has not crossed that line since.

I guess raising a dog is alot like raising kids every one is going to have there perception of right (within reason) and wrong, and we all think we know whats best for our kids and will fight that point to the death.lol

Perhaps i will do more research into this technique. Not that we have had to use it anymore. You should always know both sides of the story though.

haha most people here hate CM and the pack leader techniques have long since proven to be sh**

Point about that and about CM is that we are not dogs. We must train dogs to respect what we say and work/live WITH us. at the end of the day a dog in a pack has a hard life. If they are the bottom of the pack sometimes they starve to death because they are not left any food at all. They live in constant fear of the leaders and try constantly to please them and suck up to them (you see this in very submissive dogs who will crawl to you or lie down and roll over) We don't treat our dogs like that and shouldn't. Fear has no place in a human/dog relationship because at the end of the day if there was a fight to the death we all know who would win.

Silva wrote:woops sorry. you dont hold him by the throat. You hold one had on his side and use the other hand to replicate a pack leaders mouth. If a dog bit another dog in the pack aggressively, that is exactly what will happen?
I am pretty sure ceasar millan teaches that technique?? I dont think he would be in his position these days if he was an advocate for animal cruelty.
(I prob just opened another can of worms as he prob has his haters.lol)

I understand every one has different views. He doesnt cry, he doesnt tuck his tail, doesnt fold his ears back and crouch away. He wags, licks, and everything but show fear. I would rather have a submissive dog who respects the pack leader when they cross that line, then a dog that bites my 2 year old daughter on the face. I know he is just a pup and playing but he has sharp teeth and prob out weighs my daughter.

Ok, firstly, Cesar Milan does use cruel practices - ie shock collars, prong collars, punches and kicks, so if I were you I wouldn't use him as your yardstick. He teaches by bullying and hurting a dog. The whole 'pack leader' theory is not only outdated, but has been proved false - even by the man who first came up with it!

Secondly, tail wagging and licking are often signs of fear submission, especially if the tail and head are held fairly low.

No dog, no matter what its age, should be left alone with a young child and play should always be supervised & stopped if it gets, or starts to get, rough.

No matter what training you use, whether it's negative/positive punishment or negative/positive reinforcement, body language should always be taken into account. Personally, I don't think enough emphasis is placed on understanding a dog's 'language'.

For a start, as it was mentioned above, while tail wagging may be a sign of happiness on its own, it can also be a signal of anxiety when combined with certain other behaviours. For example, excessive blinking can be a sign of dominance.

ella wrote:

mickgill wrote:Hayley i stand by my belief that a dog should not bite anyone just because they have entered their yard but that is going off topic so maybe thats a debate for another day .

unfortunately it isn't that simple, alot of dogs WILL bite for this reason, including my Chance, which is why you need to be a responsible owner and not allow them to hurt anyone else.

Is it responsible to allow them to bite just because they are in their own back yard ? many years ago a miserable sod of a farmer near where i live hated anyone walking past his house let alone walking on his land , one day a guy was walking near to his home and one of the farmers dogs bit him it had no right to, the guy asked to farmer to say sorry he wouldn't a few days later the dog was found dead it had been poisoned more than likely by the guy who got bit, if we are going to train our dogs then one of the main priority's is not to bite anyone at all .

mickgill wrote: Is it responsible to allow them to bite just because they are in their own back yard ? many years ago a miserable sod of a farmer near where i live hated anyone walking past his house let alone walking on his land , one day a guy was walking near to his home and one of the farmers dogs bit him it had no right to, the guy asked to farmer to say sorry he wouldn't a few days later the dog was found dead it had been poisoned more than likely by the guy who got bit, if we are going to train our dogs then one of the main priority's is not to bite anyone at all .

That, I'm afraid, is almost impossible. A dog that is comfortable with its owners will defend them. If that means biting, it will bite, whether you have tried to train in not to or not!

Dempsey isn't a 'friendly' dog. He will 'warn off' people if he doesn't like them by barking & growling. He doesn't normally do more than that. However, if anyone were to raise a hand to me I'm quite sure that Dempsey would bite them, and in fact has bitten for precisely that reason. I don't condemn him for it, in fact I was very grateful that he defended me. The police were also full of praise for him, because as soon as the 'danger' was removed (ie the man ran away) Dempsey was back to being calm.

If someone came into my back yard uninvited (they'd have to climb a 7' fence to do so) Dempsey would go for them, and quite likely bite if they didn't get out pretty quick. Again, although I would step in & stop him if I was there, I wouldn't condemn him for it. I agree that it shouldn't be encouraged, but it's almost impossible to prevent a dog from protecting his loved ones.

Silva wrote:woops sorry. you dont hold him by the throat. You hold one had on his side and use the other hand to replicate a pack leaders mouth. If a dog bit another dog in the pack aggressively, that is exactly what will happen?
I am pretty sure ceasar millan teaches that technique?? I dont think he would be in his position these days if he was an advocate for animal cruelty.
(I prob just opened another can of worms as he prob has his haters.lol)

I understand every one has different views. He doesnt cry, he doesnt tuck his tail, doesnt fold his ears back and crouch away. He wags, licks, and everything but show fear. I would rather have a submissive dog who respects the pack leader when they cross that line, then a dog that bites my 2 year old daughter on the face. I know he is just a pup and playing but he has sharp teeth and prob out weighs my daughter.
I must add this is not a regular thing. We have done it maybe three times, and he has not crossed that line since.

I guess raising a dog is alot like raising kids every one is going to have there perception of right (within reason) and wrong, and we all think we know whats best for our kids and will fight that point to the death.lol

Perhaps i will do more research into this technique. Not that we have had to use it anymore. You should always know both sides of the story though.

When my dad's been strict with Loki, Loki will wag his tail slowly and try to lick him. It's submission, not happiness. Happiness isn't always as simple as wagging his tail. Loki hardly ever wags his tail, but you can see easily when he's happy. Anyway, like Caryll said, the pack leader thing has been disproven. Besides, the putting him on his back is something that the submissive dog does on its own; dogs don't force the other dogs into submission usually. To do it is really hurtful/potentially damaging to them, especially to a puppy, because it's meant to be seen as an extreme thing. Loki's met dogs and rolled onto his back of his own free will. Being forced into submission is...well, force. Dogs don't need a bossy, harsh pack leader. Course owners are always going to be the leaders in the same way a parent is the leader of a young child; you control most aspects of their life. But how strict you are depends on you.

You are proposing that we totally kill every instinct a dog has. Dogs bite. They have mouths and that is their only defence.

If someone came into your house shouting and ranting and threatening you, would you slap them? Yeah probably. So why should a dog not defend its property if it feels threatened?

It is the responsibility of the owner to keep their dog secure if they know it is protective, and to make sure they lock gates and put up signs to ward off people from entering their property.

mickgill wrote:

ella wrote:

mickgill wrote:Hayley i stand by my belief that a dog should not bite anyone just because they have entered their yard but that is going off topic so maybe thats a debate for another day .

unfortunately it isn't that simple, alot of dogs WILL bite for this reason, including my Chance, which is why you need to be a responsible owner and not allow them to hurt anyone else.

Is it responsible to allow them to bite just because they are in their own back yard ? many years ago a miserable sod of a farmer near where i live hated anyone walking past his house let alone walking on his land , one day a guy was walking near to his home and one of the farmers dogs bit him it had no right to, the guy asked to farmer to say sorry he wouldn't a few days later the dog was found dead it had been poisoned more than likely by the guy who got bit, if we are going to train our dogs then one of the main priority's is not to bite anyone at all .

Not all dogs are friendly. Period.

It's not about letting them bite, but if YOU were to walk into my garden Chance would bite you if i let him, I don't and that's what being a responsible owner is about

ella wrote:

mickgill wrote:

ella wrote:

mickgill wrote:Hayley i stand by my belief that a dog should not bite anyone just because they have entered their yard but that is going off topic so maybe thats a debate for another day .

unfortunately it isn't that simple, alot of dogs WILL bite for this reason, including my Chance, which is why you need to be a responsible owner and not allow them to hurt anyone else.

Is it responsible to allow them to bite just because they are in their own back yard ? many years ago a miserable sod of a farmer near where i live hated anyone walking past his house let alone walking on his land , one day a guy was walking near to his home and one of the farmers dogs bit him it had no right to, the guy asked to farmer to say sorry he wouldn't a few days later the dog was found dead it had been poisoned more than likely by the guy who got bit, if we are going to train our dogs then one of the main priority's is not to bite anyone at all .

It's not about letting them bite, but if YOU were to walk into my garden Chance would bite you if i let him, I don't and that's what being a responsible owner is about

Same for my neighbours dogs. They are GSD and all of them are in active service as police dogs. He lets them run about his yard cause they dont run away (and only if he is in the yard) but i walk up into the yard if i need him and he now doesnt even asks if i got in okay cause i always say yes because they have never touched me (cause i know how to get past a bloomin guard dog) but if i had not had any knowledge of dogs and went up to his yard then yes, i can 100% hand on heart say that those dogs would attack me. They are working dogs, but at the end of the day they still need a life outside of a small cage.

ella wrote:haha most people here hate CM and the pack leader techniques have long since proven to be sh**

i havent actually seen CM to be honest. I have spoken to many trainers and i have seen what works and doesnt with SIlva and alot of this CM techniques they talk of is crazy.
My dog is loved to death, he is def not bottom of the pack. My wife thinks he gets put above her and my daughter.lol prob true.
I have described an extremely small part of my dogs life experience, and from how he quick he learnt may never happen again. I dont think i have traumatised him.
I see him every day and how happy and spoilt he is. I wish i had his life.

It is good that there is so many different opinions around, if no one opposed certain techniques then we wouldnt grow as dog owners. Not all dogs are the same though and we need to listen to every one who is willing to share and critisize and find what works best both effiently and emotionaly for our own dog.
But i agree you need to know your dog first, and i like to think i do.. I spend up to 20 hours a day by his side. If he could sleep in our bed i would let him.. :-$

Silva wrote:

ella wrote:haha most people here hate CM and the pack leader techniques have long since proven to be sh**

i havent actually seen CM to be honest. I have spoken to many trainers and i have seen what works and doesnt with SIlva and alot of this CM techniques they talk of is crazy.
My dog is loved to death, he is def not bottom of the pack. My wife thinks he gets put above her and my daughter.lol prob true.
I have described an extremely small part of my dogs life experience, and from how he quick he learnt may never happen again. I dont think i have traumatised him.
I see him every day and how happy and spoilt he is. I wish i had his life.

It is good that there is so many different opinions around, if no one opposed certain techniques then we wouldnt grow as dog owners. Not all dogs are the same though and we need to listen to every one who is willing to share and critisize and find what works best both effiently and emotionaly for our own dog.
But i agree you need to know your dog first, and i like to think i do.. I spend up to 20 hours a day by his side. If he could sleep in our bed i would let him.. :-$

sounds like it's going well doggy cuddles in bed are definitely nice

I feel like a meany now but I just know if I didn't step in and split them up then they would hurt each other I hate hitting my dogs and feel so guilty afterwards! I even have to get down and snuggle them and say sorry if I acidentally step on their paw. I think as others have said there is absolutely no need to be a bully, I keep my dogs in line and they do as they are told, difficult in a pack with 4 bitches of all different ages. But I do all this with only the tone of my voice, body language and by directing displeasure or angry feelings at them. They can certainly feel that! To be honest if I am angry I don't even have to move or say anything and they know I am in a negatice mood. There is no need for physical punishment and the way I look at it if your having to go that far then your not listening to your dog. Dogs naturally want to please us, if you don't show them what you want then how are they supposed to know? Its like they are foreigners trying their best to learn our language and we keep changing our dictionary...

Trigger warning
https://youtu.be/9ihXq_WwiWM

Nosipho wrote:I feel like a meany now but I just know if I didn't step in and split them up then they would hurt each other I hate hitting my dogs and feel so guilty afterwards! I even have to get down and snuggle them and say sorry if I acidentally step on their paw.

No, that's a totally different scenario! What we were originally talking about was smacking for doing something wrong, like nipping or jumping up. To me, that's a huge no-no! Breaking up a fight, well, you do whatever you have to, to stop any injuries!

Mani wrote:Trigger warning
https://youtu.be/9ihXq_WwiWM

I've seen that clip before. He got what he deserved, but it was the poor dog that suffered in the end.

Caryll wrote:

Nosipho wrote:I feel like a meany now but I just know if I didn't step in and split them up then they would hurt each other I hate hitting my dogs and feel so guilty afterwards! I even have to get down and snuggle them and say sorry if I acidentally step on their paw.

No, that's a totally different scenario! What we were originally talking about was smacking for doing something wrong, like nipping or jumping up. To me, that's a huge no-no! Breaking up a fight, well, you do whatever you have to, to stop any injuries!

Agree, I would never hit to correct a behavorial issue as I think that is just the lazy way out and asking for trouble at a later date. To stop a fight sometimes it's the only way.

Caryll wrote:

Nosipho wrote:I feel like a meany now but I just know if I didn't step in and split them up then they would hurt each other I hate hitting my dogs and feel so guilty afterwards! I even have to get down and snuggle them and say sorry if I acidentally step on their paw.

No, that's a totally different scenario! What we were originally talking about was smacking for doing something wrong, like nipping or jumping up. To me, that's a huge no-no! Breaking up a fight, well, you do whatever you have to, to stop any injuries!

It is a different scenario absolutely. but there are methods to break up a fight without having to resort to hitting too, which a lot of people don't think abuot in the heat of the moment.

Mani wrote:Trigger warning
https://youtu.be/9ihXq_WwiWM

First time i've seen that clip, what a tw*t, this proving he clearly can't read the dogs signals at all! ha ha

Id have to disagree with a lot of people on here. Someone was saying that hitting them doesnt mean they will stop doing what theyre doing they will just think hand, paper, slipper etc = pain. This isnt true though, in my opinion. If they are chewing cables and get a smack they might be confused the first few times but they will soon realise "that happens to me when i chew this, i dont want to be hit so i wont chew it".

As for violence causes violence i dont agree here either. I was smacked and belted on a regular basis as a kid and i am not violent nowadays. I think thats whats wrong nowadays. Kids need their backside skelped every so often. Im only 21 so its not like im an old one saying his old fashioned views. I thank christ i was hit as a kid. I got caught stealing once from a shop and was belted for it. I never did it again...

Im a hypocrite though because i cant bring myself to hit my dog. She looks so innocent but ive paid the price. I cannot get her to stop toiletting on my carpets and shes nearly 3

Kev,

"Id have to disagree with a lot of people on here." -> not just with the people here, but with the dog training professional community and the scientific studies from biologists and animal behaviourists.
People are not dogs, so if violence somehow helped you it doesn't mean it will help a dog learn. I also feel sad you think that's the only way a child can learn, but that is neither here nor there for the present discussion. I was only smacked once in my life, by a teacher, and I still look back on that event with resentment 30 years on.
Perhaps if you had considered other training methods besides smacking which you can't bring yourself to anyway, your dog wouldn't toilet indoors?

Kev, to be honest, I think hitting kids is as pointless as hitting dogs, but for different reasons. I'm not saying it never works at all, obviously a lot of kids learn from it. I was hit as a kid when I did wrong, but it didn't stop me from doing anything, just made me angry that they hit me. I think it's an easy-way-out kind of thing to use the fear of pain to teach your kid that something is wrong, rather than go the slower route of explaining to them why something is wrong and disciplining them without having to hurt them. I mean, hitting your kid because they've done wrong is just them associating an act with pain, rather than them understanding from an early age why something isn't right to do. It's different with dogs cos you can't actually tell them what they've done wrong, but I think there are much better ways, less risks of your dog losing trust in you or whatever else.

Also, you haven't paid the price. If you tell a dog off too harshly (in this case, hit it) for going to the toilet, it might think you're angry with it because it's going to the toilet, which it can't control. The end result is a dog that tries to find somewhere hidden to do it. It wouldn't help at all. There are other ways that are very effective.

Mani wrote:Kev,

"Id have to disagree with a lot of people on here." -> not just with the people here, but with the dog training professional community and the scientific studies from biologists and animal behaviourists.
People are not dogs, so if violence somehow helped you it doesn't mean it will help a dog learn. I also feel sad you think that's the only way a child can learn, but that is neither here nor there for the present discussion. I was only smacked once in my life, by a teacher, and I still look back on that event with resentment 30 years on.
Perhaps if you had considered other training methods besides smacking which you can't bring yourself to anyway, your dog wouldn't toilet indoors?

Firstly, you dont know me or the training methods i have used and obviously from my comment I havent tried the smacking method. What i was getting at was that i have used every training method i have seen/heard of. Gone on google and researched, watched programs and they dont work. As I feel I have exhausted them all then smacking is the only one left which i cant bring myself to do.

The bit where i mentioned about me/other children being smacked was in reply to a few others who were speaking of this, so dont say it as if i was going off topic.

And yes, id have to disagree with all the people you mentioned then. They cannot prove that smacking or tapping a dog doesnt help. Some dogs will respond differently to different techniques.

Your reply was far too judgemental and angry for never having spoken to me before. I have my opinions just like anyone else. I wasnt pushing them on people or saying others were wrong, was merely discussing them and you reply unnecesarily aggressively.

Kev wrote:

Mani wrote:Kev,

"Id have to disagree with a lot of people on here." -> not just with the people here, but with the dog training professional community and the scientific studies from biologists and animal behaviourists.
People are not dogs, so if violence somehow helped you it doesn't mean it will help a dog learn. I also feel sad you think that's the only way a child can learn, but that is neither here nor there for the present discussion. I was only smacked once in my life, by a teacher, and I still look back on that event with resentment 30 years on.
Perhaps if you had considered other training methods besides smacking which you can't bring yourself to anyway, your dog wouldn't toilet indoors?

Firstly, you dont know me or the training methods i have used and obviously from my comment I havent tried the smacking method. What i was getting at was that i have used every training method i have seen/heard of. Gone on google and researched, watched programs and they dont work. As I feel I have exhausted them all then smacking is the only one left which i cant bring myself to do.

The bit where i mentioned about me/other children being smacked was in reply to a few others who were speaking of this, so dont say it as if i was going off topic.

And yes, id have to disagree with all the people you mentioned then. They cannot prove that smacking or tapping a dog doesnt help. Some dogs will respond differently to different techniques.

Your reply was far too judgemental and angry for never having spoken to me before. I have my opinions just like anyone else. I wasnt pushing them on people or saying others were wrong, was merely discussing them and you reply unnecesarily aggressively.

I fully understand a judgemental point of view when you have said that smacking a pup is ok! Whilst you have said you, personally, can't bring yourself to do it, you clearly think that it is ok. For example, if you smacked your dog for toileting on the carpet, you will be punishing her for doing something that is totally natural to her. Dogs don't do things to spite us, or because they want to do wrong - they do things because they don't know it's wrong. Everything a dog does is a 'behaviour'. All 'behaviours' are natural for a dog & something that would be perfectly acceptable in other situations. We have to teach them which 'behaviours' are acceptable to humans and which ones aren't. All smacking does is teach a dog that there will be pain when you raise your hand!

I just don't understand why you would want a pup hurt in that way.