Pack Leader

Hey guys,

I know a lot of people go by all of this 'be the pack leader' mentality when it comes to training and interacting with their dogs and it 'appears' logical and seems to make sense but I have seen people here suggesting it is a load of rubbish.

I have read training guides and watched TV shows (won't mention the name..haha!) that use this mentality with a lot of success, so I was wondering if the people that don't believe in this method can explain why?

I am not an advocate for or against these methods, I am just interested.

Ta.

i posted about this earlier apparently its not true or not been proved to be true

for me I just don't see any problems from not adopting this attitude in certain respect like the feeding ritual for instance

It's an old theory that's since been discredited. Dogs aren't wolves. You can't treat them like wolves or say they behave like wolves anymore than you can say that we should treat ourselves the same way we'd expect apes to behave.

Besides, it's not so much the idea of being a pack leader that's so bad, it's the harsh methods. I don't think it's bad for your dog if you're in charge. Even people who don't believe in this theory are in charge of their dogs. That's just a fact, so if people want to see themselves as a pack leader or a boss, that in itself isn't harmful. I know a woman who's trained all her dogs by that theory, but she does so with her voice and her body language rather than kicks or confrontation or shock collars or whatever else. So the theory is fine. Just that people using physical methods is what's wrong. I mean, there are different ways of training a dog, there's no need in this day and age to have to resort to using anything physical. Plus the problem with those TV shows (ie Cesar Milan's one) is that they edit out all the "bad" parts. They tell you not to do those things without the help of a behaviourist, but people still do them, and that just makes it worse because people are kicking their dog or doing this and that thinking it's how to train your dog, when it'll just make it worse. It's a bad way to train your dog not because of the theory, but because there's an extremely thin line between training and making things worse with those methods. Look at how many times Cesar Milan has been bitten for his confrontational ways, and tell me it wouldn't be much, much worse with someone who just copies what's seen on the television. Too much risk involved.

The whole 'pack leader' type of training was coined by Stanley Coren in his book The Intelligence of Dogs. Stanley Coren had studied a pack of captive wolves that had been 'thrown together' and were therefore not typical of how wolves really behave. However, his book gained in popularity & became 'the in way' to train a dog.

However, he has, fairly recently, done a complete about turn, and admits that in wild wolves the 'pack leader' theory just doesn't hold true. Wolf packs act as a cooperative, with each having a role, but not a particular 'place' in the pack. Even the alpha male & female (the breeding pair) may not be 'in charge' of the pack.

Most modern behaviourists/trainers now follow the positive reinforcement mode of training, which gives better results and a more 'rounded' dog at the end of it.

So, no, I don't hold with the 'pack leader' theory.

i think when you have dog you have to be the boss which is like a peck leader

Thanks for the replies so far.

I have found other sites that seem to follow this theory.

For example, what do you think to this? Came across it while searching about dog's walking in front of you on a walk.

Walk your dog, do not let your dog walk you. If you allow your dog to walk in front of you while on a lead you are reinforcing in the dog's mind that the dog is alpha over you because the leader always goes first. This can lead to many behavioral issues that some regard as a "breed trait" or "personality," when actually it is your dog being in charge of its humans. When a dog walks in front, it does not drain its mental energy. The dog is not relaxed, as it has the big responsibility of leading the pack. This mental anguish can build up inside of a dog. When a dog is hyper or high-strung it means the dog is not getting the proper amount and/or type of exercise. If your dog runs laps around your yard or house, this is an indication that it is not getting enough exercise.'

I'm no expert but some of the things mentioned do seem to be true and do happen in the wild BUT do dog's really believe the same applies to us and them, as in humans? Does a dog walking in front of you really perceive it is leading you?

This seems a little harsh though?

The dog should not sniff the ground and relieve himself where he pleases; his job while walking is to concentrate on following his handler. The person walking the dog decides when the dog is allowed to sniff or pee, not the dog.

There is plenty more on the below link.

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/articles/dogwalk.htm

I totally disagree with certain methods, like kicking, tugging etc etc also, but there seems to be parts of this mentality that seem to work and make sense?

i dont like that dogbreedinfo site it's full of crap only website on the net that promote irish staffy

Steve wrote:i think when you have dog you have to be the boss which is like a peck leader

Yes, but that's not quite what the 'pack leader' theory is.

The whole pack leader theory includes things like going through doors first & eating first. Eating (or pretending to eat) some of your dog's food before you give it to them. The alpha roll (which wolves don't do!) etc.

I think it all comes down to common sense, I can't let my dog "rule the roost" anymore than I could let my four year old be the boss of me, but I can let him walk in front of me through doorways, and share my sofa or bed provided he listens to me when I say no etc. The research was discredited on several grounds, not least as others have said because it was based on captive wolves, their behaviour was altered by the unnatural conditions they were living in. Dogs do not want to be your boss imo, but they want to know where they stand in the house, just as we all do.

Caryll wrote:

Steve wrote:i think when you have dog you have to be the boss which is like a peck leader

Yes, but that's not quite what the 'pack leader' theory is.

The whole pack leader theory includes things like going through doors first & eating first. Eating (or pretending to eat) some of your dog's food before you give it to them. The alpha roll (which wolves don't do!) etc.

What do you think about a dog leaving the house first? Do you think it is ok? I get a feeling of disrespect if my dog tries to pull me through the door first

The dogbreedinfo site (in my opinion only) is a load of old tosh. The trouble is, it's based on a theory put forward by somebody whose research was flawed, and who has now admitted that he got it wrong!

I think it's as straightforward as if your dog is pulling through the door (through eagerness not dominance) and you don't want that behaviour, I don't for practical reasons, Dex is strong and I am tiny, I will go over knowing me you get the dog to wait until you are going, instead of pulling. But it isn't down to the reasons given in the pack leader theory, and you have to find what works for you as dog owner.

PygmyParrot wrote:I think it's as straightforward as if your dog is pulling through the door (through eagerness not dominance) and you don't want that behaviour, I don't for practical reasons, Dex is strong and I am tiny, I will go over knowing me you get the dog to wait until you are going, instead of pulling. But it isn't down to the reasons given in the pack leader theory, and you have to find what works for you as dog owner.

Cool.

Well I have already trained him to wait until I leave/enter first when leaving and entering the house because I don't like him trying to run out in between my legs!

Gee wrote:What do you think about a dog leaving the house first? Do you think it is ok? I get a feeling of disrespect if my dog tries to pull me through the door first

Dempsey isn't allowed to pull me through a doorway, but only because of safety. I'm really not at all bothered whether he goes first, or I go first. If I need him to wait I'll tell him to.

Dogs don't think like we do. Their behaviour isn't governed by 'respect'. If you have the lead, and you have taught your dog to walk nicely on the lead, then you're in a partnership - it doesn't matter who goes first, your dog is still in control because you have the lead, or at least you can tell him to stay if he tries to go out without a lead on.

I don't think there's anything wrong with things like making sure your dog doesn't walk ahead of you or go out of the door before you. Those are two things I do agree with, but not necessarily because it means Loki's the boss. Mostly because I don't want him to think it's OK to dive past people to go through doors first, which he often likes to do. And walking in front of me I don't let him do unless I tell him he can, because I have more control when he's walking right next to me. That way if he does start pulling, I already have control over him.

The woman's dogs on that site are very well-behaved but seem happy, I don't think she uses harsh methods or physical methods, so I think that's the way to do things if you're going to believe in such a theory. I mean, like I said, I don't think there's anything wrong with people thinking they have to be the boss, that's not what causes the problems, it's more the methods people associate with it. Even if being a pack leader is disproven, there's nothing harmful about having your dog walk next to you, eating first, etc., so those things aren't where the problems lie, it's when people resort to the things they copy from television.

Here's something far better for you to read about this:
http://drsophiayin.com/philosophy/dominance/

Gee wrote:Thanks for the replies so far.

I have found other sites that seem to follow this theory.

For example, what do you think to this? Came across it while searching about dog's walking in front of you on a walk.

Walk your dog, do not let your dog walk you. If you allow your dog to walk in front of you while on a lead you are reinforcing in the dog's mind that the dog is alpha over you because the leader always goes first. This can lead to many behavioral issues that some regard as a "breed trait" or "personality," when actually it is your dog being in charge of its humans. When a dog walks in front, it does not drain its mental energy. The dog is not relaxed, as it has the big responsibility of leading the pack. This mental anguish can build up inside of a dog. When a dog is hyper or high-strung it means the dog is not getting the proper amount and/or type of exercise. If your dog runs laps around your yard or house, this is an indication that it is not getting enough exercise.'

I'm no expert but some of the things mentioned do seem to be true and do happen in the wild BUT do dog's really believe the same applies to us and them, as in humans? Does a dog walking in front of you really perceive it is leading you?

This seems a little harsh though?

The dog should not sniff the ground and relieve himself where he pleases; his job while walking is to concentrate on following his handler. The person walking the dog decides when the dog is allowed to sniff or pee, not the dog.

There is plenty more on the below link.

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/articles/dogwalk.htm

I totally disagree with certain methods, like kicking, tugging etc etc also, but there seems to be parts of this mentality that seem to work and make sense?

I don't agree with either of those. Suki will walk in front espically if she knows where she is going or we use a long lead to give her some freedom. As long as your dog listens to what you tell them and you are using positive reinforcement you are fine. I think the whole pack leader term is so often misused and understood that even when people are in agreement they will think they aren't.

My dogs walk in front of me when on their leads, and that is where I prefer them to be, I have slight mobility issues at times and I like them to be where I can see them, and not tread on or trip over them.

They sleep on our bed, sit on the sofa with us, but they know the humans in this house are in charge and they do as they are told.

I agree there has to be a leader, but I don't agree with the whole pack way of thinking and never have, my dogs have been brought up as part of our family, and just like with our children, there has been teaching, training and rules they follow. Rewards and bribery work for me and in 30 years of dog ownership (and 26 years of parenthood) I have never had a problem.
Patience and gentleness work wonders where cruelty and impatience creates frightened, nervous dogs (and kids) which are unpredictable.

I dont think it matters whether your dog goes out the door before you, only that he goes out in a controlled manner, ie no struggling to get out before you. Train him to go out quietly whether before or after you. Also I cant see the problem of your dog walking ahead of you, as long as he is not pulling your arm off in a struggle to get to the next tree.

Mani wrote:Here's something far better for you to read about this:
http://drsophiayin.com/philosophy/dominance/

Quite interesting, but I stopped reading as soon as the author mentioned they they use pinch (prong) collars.

Caryll wrote:

Mani wrote:Here's something far better for you to read about this:
http://drsophiayin.com/philosophy/dominance/

Quite interesting, but I stopped reading as soon as the author mentioned they they use pinch (prong) collars.

I think you should read it, it is very interesting and challenges the whole Millan style and looks at things from a different angle.

I think she goes on to say she doesn't use them anymore but tried them?

She comes to the dog training world from a scientific background and in fact John Bradshaw (biologist who wrote In Defence of Dogs) recommends her training methods. So in that regard it's natural she has tried all training methods out there as part of experimentation to find what's best. If you have a read through the article she'll state that she uses pinch collars very, very rarely as she's found reward systems much more useful. It's also worth noting the way she uses the term 'punishment':
- positive punishment = actually doing something to punish the dog, like reprimanding him, rattle bottles, slapping him, etc
- negative punishment = punishing the dog by NOT doing something, for example not giving him the attention or playtime he craves.

I think all of us here at the forum are against positive punishment and for negative punishment if the situation warrants it, right? Having said that, Dr Yin's training methods are about reinforcing good behaviour not any kind of punishment.

I just can't support the use of prong collars.

Don't agree with everything that John Bradshaw says, either!

Gee wrote:I think you should read it, it is very interesting and challenges the whole Millan style and looks at things from a different angle.

I think she goes on to say she doesn't use them anymore but tried them?

" If that best technique involves a punishment such as, for dogs, a pinch collar "pop" or reprimand, or booby trap of some sort, or even an electronic collar, then I will use it."

Sorry, can't approve. I like her general training measures, but that would put me off completely.

Okay,

Never saw that bit, but a part from comments like that, a lot of it makes for interesting reading.

I think it's important to watch TV dog shows with a pinch of salt. They're reality TV, but still heavily edited and with some parts staged for extra drama. As a dog owner we know that problems with dogs aren't fixed in 30 minutes or a single session. It's the consistency and persistence that gets dogs to change behaviour, and you can't show that in a TV programme as it'd be deadly dull.

I agree, but only in part. I think most people realise that the 'training' doesn't just happen during 30 minutes, it's the (in my opinion) cruelty that's dished out off camera that I hate.

Caryll wrote:I agree, but only in part. I think most people realise that the 'training' doesn't just happen during 30 minutes, it's the (in my opinion) cruelty that's dished out off camera that I hate.

True, but as well as that, it's dangerous for the owner (and therefore the dog). Even if the methods weren't cruel, weren't harming the dog at all, you'd still be taking matters into your own hands with a dog that has issues. Cesar Millan himself has been bitten by dogs, so presumably any non-trainer imitating his methods would have a similar outcome. I think when it comes to taking matters into your own hands, you should stick with methods that are guaranteed to not make things worse at the very least.

To be honest, I don't follow the 'Pack Leader' theory. If Dempsey walks through a doorway before me, I'm not going to yank him back. If he's hungry, he gets fed - I don't think he really cares if we've eaten. We don't pretend to eat from his bowl or jerk his head up every time he decides to sniff something on a walk.

As far as I'm concerned, I don't need to do all of that 'Pack Leader' stuff for him to know that he's not the boss! Despite the fact that I let him stroll through doorways and sniff a little on his walks, he still gets guilty and silly when he's told off - definitely not dominance!

The thing I try to remember is that dogs are not wolves. Their instincts are very watered down. Also, they're not stupid as stupid as they look! They know we're not other dogs.

As a side note, I've noticed that a lot of people (not aiming this at people here, but rather at people I've come into contact with) get very defensive if I criticise Cesar Millan. It's quite amusing sometimes!

I do disagree with some of his methods. For example, using a shock collar to an extent that a dog is terrified to even look at an object which was once the focus of its aggression.

Eleanor wrote:To be honest, I don't follow the 'Pack Leader' theory. If Dempsey walks through a doorway before me, I'm not going to yank him back. If he's hungry, he gets fed - I don't think he really cares if we've eaten. We don't pretend to eat from his bowl or jerk his head up every time he decides to sniff something on a walk.

In all honesty, I'd love to teach Loki not to sniff when we're on walks...but only because he has this annoying habit of suddenly diving to the left to sniff something and throwing me off-balance...or sticking his head right where my foot's going to be, which results in me kicking him in the face and/or me tripping over. It's terrible

ANattyRat wrote:...or sticking his head right where my foot's going to be, which results in me kicking him in the face and/or me tripping over. It's terrible

At which point he then yelps really loudly so that everybody in the street looks round & thinks you've just beaten the crap out of him!

hi not been on for a while but as far as pack leader goes I don't believe in it but do think your dog needs to know who is boss blain my eldest knows I am the boss I only have to raise my voice and he will come back in line where maisie is still young and tries it on more lol but is getting better they don't get hit or kicked just a stern shouting seems to work most of the time

As mentioned before pack leader is an out dated method and proved to be flawed. I love this artical as it shows what can be acheived by alternate methods http://leecharleskelleysblog.blogspot.co.uk/2008/05/proper-way-to-do-alpha-roll.html?m=1
What i find funny is most modern dog behaviourists beleive in alpha rule while all gun dog and working dog trainers i know beleive in a firm hand yes but keep it fun and play above anything else..your dog has to respect you to work for you.

Double post damnit...

Nathan wrote:As mentioned before pack leader is an out dated method and proved to be flawed. I love this artical as it shows what can be acheived by alternate methods http://leecharleskelleysblog.blogspot.co.uk/2008/05/proper-way-to-do-alpha-roll.html?m=1
What i find funny is most modern dog behaviourists beleive in alpha rule while all gun dog and working dog trainers i know beleive in a firm hand yes but keep it fun and play above anything else..your dog has to respect you to work for you.

Interestingly, we took Loki to a different type of puppy class a while back, the trainers were gun dog trainers and seemed to be really credible and great. Turns out they were of the opinion that you shouldn't be afraid to get rough with your puppy to let him know who's boss because dogs need a leader. They're everywhere