John Bradshaw - agree or disagree?

Thought I'd start this up because John Bradshaw's name is mentioned in passing quite a lot, but some people may not know who he is, or may not agree with him. He has written the popular book "In Defense of Dogs".

So, do you agree/disagree/both/never heard of him? Choose your vote & post a reason, but please, no huge, long essays!

I'll start.

He bases his assumptions on dogs being descended from a more sociable wolf than the Timber Wolf (the species the whole 'pack leader' thing was based on) that has been extinct for hundreds of years (if it ever existed at all - no proof). He is also not a behaviourist, he's a scientist.

I agree that the pack leader theory is wrong, but do not agree on his assumption that there is no such thing as Dominance or Submissiveness in dogs. This assumption is based on dogs being descended from a species of wolf that may never have existed!

Thanks Caryll, it is amazing how much we learn with discussions like this, I haven't heard of him but that could be my memory so I done a search and found this http://www.npr.org/2011/05/26/136497064/the-new-science-of-understanding-dog-behavior I haven't had time to read it yet though.

From what I saw on the other thread about dominance, at the moment I agree with it but with reseach I may change my mind. The reason I agree is I have 5 dogs, used to have 6, only 2 of my present dogs were in that 6. My thinking of dominance in dogs has come from watching my own dogs interact with each other and the foster dogs that I have taken in the past. Bringing in a new dog alters my gang every time as the new dog fits in.

Cyril baby wrote: Bringing in a new dog alters my gang every time as the new dog fits in.

Of course it does, because each dog has its own level of dominance!

Sorry, couldn't resist that!

Never heard of him. I would like to say though, I came across a few sites that mention a guy named Frank Beach who supposedly studied dog packs (as opposed to wolves) for 30 years. It seems you can't find his research online, but a few dog training sites mention it. Anyway, he found that dogs did have a hierarchy, but it wasn't as stern with females as with males. And that dogs that were bossy or used force were taken down in the rank, because the dogs at the top of the hierarchy were the ones who never really used physical force, they were the boss and never needed to show it or resort to petty arguments. He found that the ones who did were the ones that were in the middle and probably felt insecure of their place in the pack.

Anyway, so if you choose to believe that, there is a hierarchy, and a leader of some sort, as well as such things as dominance and submission, but bossiness, bullying, etc. isn't tolerated by any members of the pack, and if you resort to those things, the dog actually respects your authority less.

Sorry, just throwing my own bit in there but yeah, I'll do some looking into his opinions.

ANattyRat wrote:
Anyway, so if you choose to believe that, there is a hierarchy, and a leader of some sort, as well as such things as dominance and submission, but bossiness, bullying, etc. isn't tolerated by any members of the pack, and if you resort to those things, the dog actually respects your authority less.

That sounds much more feasible to me.

I've heard the name but never read anything he has written

I'm curious as to what this thread is about?

I've not read his book In Defense Of Dogs although it's on my wish list.

As far as I'm aware, he didn't say there is no such thing as as dominance and submissiveness in dogs but that he coined the commonly accepted definition of dominance amongst behavioural scientists which is that dominance is not a personality trait but a relationship between individuals.

This article may be interesting to some - http://drsophiayin.com/philosophy/dominance/

Sorry i had not heard of him either so haven't read anything of his

Galadriel wrote:I'm curious as to what this thread is about?

I've not read his book In Defense Of Dogs although it's on my wish list.

As far as I'm aware, he didn't say there is no such thing as as dominance and submissiveness in dogs but that he coined the commonly accepted definition of dominance amongst behavioural scientists which is that dominance is not a personality trait but a relationship between individuals.

This article may be interesting to some - http://drsophiayin.com/philosophy/dominance/

Thanks for the link, but that isn't what this thread is about. You often quote Bradshaw & yet you haven't read his (probably) most famous book?

This thread is about what he says a dog's behaviour is all about, not what the definition of dominance is.

Ain't not got a scooby doo about the bloke and nor am I likely to , not my style I'm afraid

Caryll wrote:

Cyril baby wrote: Bringing in a new dog alters my gang every time as the new dog fits in.

Of course it does, because each dog has its own level of dominance!

Sorry, couldn't resist that!

I have just read that link I put up and have to say there is quite a bit I don't agree with,

According to him if you ignore a dog when he is misbehaving he will start to behave, never worked for me and is why I no longer ingore my dogs. If they want attention it is for a reason, dogs don't do anything without a reason. Depending on what I am doing at that time depends on how much attention I give my dog. If I am busy I smile at them and tickle their chest, they are then happy and I can continue with what I am doing. I did have to teach my dogs this, Gracie especially was very demanding of attention when she arrived.

Dogs always have a reason why they do something even biting, it is us humans who don't realise what the reason is, the more we understand our dogs the more we can work out what their reason is.

I won't be buying any of his books.

Dave wrote:Ain't not got a scooby doo about the bloke and nor am I likely to , not my style I'm afraid

Snap Dave

Dont need a book to tell me what i see on a daily bases with my own 5.

My old girl Leyla is boss and the other 4 including my male knows this, and while shes still alive we have harmony.
If Leyla say for example is telling my youngest Cookie off, Cookie will lower herself and grovel. When this happens i've notice one of my other females will come over and lower themselves too and start to lick the inside of Leylas mouth till she stops.

Caryll wrote:

Galadriel wrote:I'm curious as to what this thread is about?

I've not read his book In Defense Of Dogs although it's on my wish list.

As far as I'm aware, he didn't say there is no such thing as as dominance and submissiveness in dogs but that he coined the commonly accepted definition of dominance amongst behavioural scientists which is that dominance is not a personality trait but a relationship between individuals.

This article may be interesting to some - http://drsophiayin.com/philosophy/dominance/

Thanks for the link, but that isn't what this thread is about. You often quote Bradshaw & yet you haven't read his (probably) most famous book?

This thread is about what he says a dog's behaviour is all about, not what the definition of dominance is.

In that case I can't comment

As far as I'm aware, I've quoted him once, which was yesterday and it was a very well known and well accepted statement. Just because he got one thing right doesn't mean he got everything right

Galadriel wrote:As far as I'm aware, I've quoted him once, which was yesterday and it was a very well known and well accepted statement. Just because he got one thing right doesn't mean he got everything right

I apologise - I thought you'd quoted him more than that, must've been someone else.

Caryll wrote:

Galadriel wrote:As far as I'm aware, I've quoted him once, which was yesterday and it was a very well known and well accepted statement. Just because he got one thing right doesn't mean he got everything right

I apologise - I thought you'd quoted him more than that, must've been someone else.

Haven't heard of him but will check what he has to say!

Denise wrote:

Dave wrote:Ain't not got a scooby doo about the bloke and nor am I likely to , not my style I'm afraid

Snap Dave

Dont need a book to tell me what i see on a daily bases with my own 5.

My old girl Leyla is boss and the other 4 including my male knows this, and while shes still alive we have harmony.
If Leyla say for example is telling my youngest Cookie off, Cookie will lower herself and grovel. When this happens i've notice one of my other females will come over and lower themselves too and start to lick the inside of Leylas mouth till she stops.

Nope never heared of him and i must admit im not really a great lover of reading all the books that go with keeping dogs. Ive have read a few as my friend is literally obsessed with them. I kindda go on experience at the kennels and owning dogs myself.....although completley off topic the book of the bitch is fantastic and the only book ive found to be extremley informative!

Never heard of him or his theories on dogs. I would rather learn as I go along with Charlie because what may be true of one dog is not necessarily true of all dogs.