Schutzhund......

Now dont everyone start arguing over it everyone has their opinion, but I'm curious to see what everyone makes of it!

Schutzhund is the sport of obedience, tracking and protection. Yes this involves bite work.

What is your take on it and would you do it with your dog staffy or any other?

I think it's a great discipline & I'd love to see more dog owners get involved (training with qualified trainers of course!).

I wouldn't like to see staffs get too involved, though. They're not really the sort of breed you should be training to bite!

David Harris once had an argument with an Airforce dog trainer. He said that his stafford wouldn't be able to do bite work & the Airforce guy said he could teach any dog to do it, so David agreed to have a go.

Every time they tried, the dog would do the chase, but wouldn't bite. They didn't give up, though. Eventually, at the end of a chase the dog leapt, bit the 'decoy's padded arm & immediately let go. Then he looked at David as if to say "Are you happy now? That was under protest!"

Anything I can do with Ty that is fun and strengthens the bond I would look at but I will not do bite work.

Caryll wrote:I think it's a great discipline & I'd love to see more dog owners get involved (training with qualified trainers of course!).

I wouldn't like to see staffs get too involved, though. They're not really the sort of breed you should be training to bite!

David Harris once had an argument with an Airforce dog trainer. He said that his stafford wouldn't be able to do bite work & the Airforce guy said he could teach any dog to do it, so David agreed to have a go.

Every time they tried, the dog would do the chase, but wouldn't bite. They didn't give up, though. Eventually, at the end of a chase the dog leapt, bit the 'decoy's padded arm & immediately let go. Then he looked at David as if to say "Are you happy now? That was under protest!"

I agree with you I think it's a great discipline and would love to maybe try with chance one day..... I no he'd certainly enjoy it, but his obedience would need to be there first!

I'd never do it with Harv and i don't think it's something to be done with staffs either

Sure woundnt use a staffy, theres a lot of dogs out there that was breed to do it..

Something about it that just dosent sit right with me .. its not something I'd ever consider with any breed I dont think.

Its quite big in the US with working pits mind, they seem to do very well at it

It obviously has its place but in general the bite training should only be for official protection work. Was talking to a dog handler a few weeks back who just had a new dog on the street and he was saying that the dog was too smart and when chasing the trainer it would pause and look as if to say 'well that arm is all covered in padding' and he would go for the other one I think Ledger would do that although luckily he doens't have many teeth!

jshrew wrote:It obviously has its place but in general the bite training should only be for official protection work. Was talking to a dog handler a few weeks back who just had a new dog on the street and he was saying that the dog was too smart and when chasing the trainer it would pause and look as if to say 'well that arm is all covered in padding' and he would go for the other one I think Ledger would do that although luckily he doens't have many teeth!

I don't think it should be left for official work, it's about the obedience and the fact the dog must let go when the owner/trainer says so.

It is definitely something i'd love to do, i love to see dogs working.

ella wrote:

I don't think it should be left for official work, it's about the obedience and the fact the dog must let go when the owner/trainer says so.

It is definitely something i'd love to do, i love to see dogs working.

I think its more that the dogs that don't/wont let go, I could see it attracting people who want an aggressive dog and wont do the groundwork with the obedience.

The general concept is fine I just personally don't like it going as far as training to bite in that it could open up a whole can of worms.

It's interesting and it seems like it's great fun and discipline, but I wouldn't do it with Loki because I want with all my heart for his teeth never to make purposeful contact with my skin ever again I wouldn't want to encourage him. The other stuff I'd be up for though, but I don't know that much about it, so it's not a serious consideration for me, just my opinion.

jshrew wrote:

ella wrote:

I don't think it should be left for official work, it's about the obedience and the fact the dog must let go when the owner/trainer says so.

It is definitely something i'd love to do, i love to see dogs working.

I think its more that the dogs that don't/wont let go, I could see it attracting people who want an aggressive dog and wont do the groundwork with the obedience.

The general concept is fine I just personally don't like it going as far as training to bite in that it could open up a whole can of worms.

To do it properly it's all regulated and through qualified trainers.

Andy wrote:Something about it that just dosent sit right with me .. its not something I'd ever consider with any breed I dont think.
Its quite big in the US with working pits mind, they seem to do very well at it

It's big in this country as well. Mainly GSDs but also Malinois & other larger breeds.

jshrew wrote:It obviously has its place but in general the bite training should only be for official protection work. Was talking to a dog handler a few weeks back who just had a new dog on the street and he was saying that the dog was too smart and when chasing the trainer it would pause and look as if to say 'well that arm is all covered in padding' and he would go for the other one I think Ledger would do that although luckily he doens't have many teeth!

The bite training is only started once they are absolutely certain that the dog will let go! Most of it is trained as play, and then they go on from there. They are actually trained to go for a) the padded arm (which is the arm the 'dummy' holds out) and b) go for the arm that (eventually) has a weapon of some sort (usually a stick). Any dog that won't let go stops the bite work immediately & they go back to basic training.

The training should always be carried out by qualified instructors, and you never move on to the next stage until they're sure you're ready.

About 30 years ago, I had Dobbermans and we did advanced training and 'Man' work. I cannot for the life of me remember what I was thinking. My male, Sher Khan won many advanced obedience Trials and was really good and controlled at the man work. I do think that it seemed acceptable for that breed at that time her in South Africa. if I had to do it again I would not even consider it and I could never imagine a Staff that way.

What are the legal implications of having a bite-trained dog if an intruder breaks in?

i wouldn't like staffs to get involved, they lock on too easy. Honestly unless you are using the dog for work i don't see why it would be needed at all. The tracking part, okay. But the biting part should be strictly for police dogs.

It isn't needed, it's a well recognised sport.

Working dog wrote:What are the legal implications of having a bite-trained dog if an intruder breaks in?

If your dog is trained as an 'attack' dog (ie as a guard dog) your insurance won't cover you but the police won't care. However, if your dog is a properly trained schutzhund dog with good responses and a good 'leave' then there's no problem.

Hayley wrote:i wouldn't like staffs to get involved, they lock on too easy. Honestly unless you are using the dog for work i don't see why it would be needed at all. The tracking part, okay. But the biting part should be strictly for police dogs.

I agree about the staffs. Not because they 'lock on', but because it's generally against their nature & I wouldn't want to change that.

ella wrote:It isn't needed, it's a well recognised sport.

There's the crux of it. It's a sport. Just like weight pulling, agility, obedience, working trials. Even in working trials you can compete at the very top with man work, it's not just schutzhund!

If your dog is trained as an 'attack' dog (ie as a guard dog) your insurance won't cover you but the police won't care. However, if your dog is a properly trained schutzhund dog with good responses and a good 'leave' then there's no problem.

Thats a big "If" Caryll ..

What happens if say a dog decided it liked the "bite work" a little too much when it got to stage of the training, and the back to basic training didnt work ? .. or say the owner decided they'd had enough or couldnt continue with the sport by then, potentially leaving a dog confused about what was acceptable ?

I dont know anything about it really, but as I said, it just goes against my thoughts of what a dog should be encouraged to do, unless it is a guard/police dog. I'm all for working a dog, they are all good at one thing or another and its great when you find out what that is and you can build on it, but I think Schuzund can be tempting fate a little

But hey, thats just my two penneth

Won't be thinking about it for my 2 , don't like the idea of training to bite, and like the reputation our dogs have already as being one of the worst guard dogs ever invented, but each one to their own I suppose

The vast majority of people who go in for schutzhund are dedicated trainers. I know several GSD owners who compete in schutzhund, one has represented GB abroad. It's generally not undertaken lightly & the work needed to progress to man work is enough to deter those who might drop out or misuse the training. Dogs have to be fully under control before they even start the man work training.

I no of some that have bite trained dogs. These dogs are so well trained and obedient, much more so then your pet dog that they are much less likely to bite someone then all off our staffs as they are taught to bite on command and NO other time.

Thought I'd post this (with the owner's permission!) to show just how well trained these dogs are...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQJF63j7zhk

Love it

The guy with this particular dog also breeds the occasional litter of work-line GSDs. They are really high energy dogs that need to work - they never go to 'pet' homes unless the new owner is prepared to do some serious training with them.

The kennel/training establishment is Vislor...
http://www.vislor.com/

He once told me that he could train Dempsey to do Schutzhund....I begged to differ!

Haha awww poor dempsey

I don't have a personal problem with it but I don't think a Staff is the right breed. A pit could be alright at it but I think the GSD and Malinois are a more natural fit. I think American Bulldogs could do as well as APBT and if it strengthens the bond with Chance and improves him, I don't see anything wrong with it. Like many dog sports, there will always be people who don't understand it or like it much, but I think it is great bonding time and a great workout for the both of you!

American bulldogs tend to be the best breed after GSD and mals much much better then APBT.

I'd love to do it with chance as he certainly has the natural instinct that way. I would hope it would be good for both of us and to really build on his obedience

I've got mixed feelings about schutzhund.
Done for the right reasons i see it as a good thing, but in the wrong hands this could spell disaster.

And i certainly wouldn't want to see Staffords doing this, their too much a ppls dog, and this goes against their natural trait.

Its not something I like to see to be honest the obedience is great but the training to actual bite is just pushing it over the edge for me

It could probably be seen as good and bad,

if you could get your dog to stop when commanded too, if anything ever did unfortinately arise with a situation like that then you could get the dog to stop, and if they only bit on command then i guess it would stop them from doing it without being told to

but then on the other hand it does seem a bit drastic to be teaching a dog to bite when its only a home/family pet - unless it needs to be used for like guarding etc

ella wrote:I'd love to do it with chance as he certainly has the natural instinct that way. I would hope it would be good for both of us and to really build on his obedience

My only reservation with Chance is his dislike of people. Schutzhund trainsers won't train people aggressive dogs, their temperament has to be spot on before they even start.

Denise wrote:And i certainly wouldn't want to see Staffords doing this, their too much a ppls dog, and this goes against their natural trait.

No, absolutely not. Staffords are definitely not the right sort of breed for that type of discipline.

x0gawjus0x wrote:if you could get your dog to stop when commanded too, if anything ever did unfortinately arise with a situation like that then you could get the dog to stop, and if they only bit on command then i guess it would stop them from doing it without being told to

but then on the other hand it does seem a bit drastic to be teaching a dog to bite when its only a home/family pet - unless it needs to be used for like guarding etc

The dogs that are trained in schutzhund let go the instant they are told to every time. Also, as I said before, their temperament is rock solid so they don't just bite willy nilly. They are commanded to go, and that's what they do. They don't actually bite unless the 'dummy' runs away or brandishes a weapon. If they stand still & are non threatening the dog just barks at them until called away - have a look at the beginning of the video with Kai.

Although many dogs are pets first, some have a very high energy level & drive. They need something strenuous & mind-exercising to keep them sane. Schutzhund is one of the disciplines that you can use to keep them occupid & happy. It's a discipline, just like obedience, working trials (also uses man work at the very top), agility and yes, even weight pulling, although that requires no brain at all (no disrespect intended!).

As much as i'd want to be able to do the whole thing with Chance i doubt he'd be 'fit' for the protection aspect. So much more the obedience and tracking aspect would be good

You'd probably be better off with working trials then. Very good for a dog's brainwork!

He certainly could do with some sort of work to keep his brain busy!

Ella, have a look at this - don't know whether it's helpful or not.
http://www.workingtrialsmonthly.co.uk/

Thanks I'll have a nosy when I get on the laptop

Personally i'm with the majority and think that schutzhund isn't for Staffies. IMO it goes against their key character traits too much. However, I think it's a great sport for the right breed and ultimately creates the highest level of control over your dog.

That said I found this youtube clip title "First Staffordshire Bull Terrier with protectiondog 3,Sch.h.3,VH.3,IPO.3(1988)". Now I know nothing about schutzhund qualifications but it sounds like he/she has done quite well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpTSwFtiouo

Nice video & good control. SchH3 is a top qualification, I don't know what the other letters stand for though.

I still wouldn't want to see staffords becoming popular in schutzhund, though. I think it goes against their natural temperament.

I think staffs like that one would certainly enjoy it BUT my problem is the stigma against the breed as it is, and if more people were to try and do schutzhund without the proper training on their own 'cos they think it would be cool, that's the problem!

True.