thoughts please

as you know Ive been gifted my 2 dogs .my bitch from my daughter as a gift ,my dog Leo given as a free to a good home from a breeder/shower of dogs.after being offered around my place of work i decided to take him on as was being told he would be left in kennel and taken out for walks,but no good to him as not quite up to his standard for showing,although was placing in shows.any way i inquired about his papers a little while after,being rebuffed as to why i wanted them ..then said if i wanted them I'd have to buy them ,i wasn't happy with this through principle.as a free to good home should include all thing connected as you wouldn't give someone a car then sell them the log book would you ..i asked kennel club and they went happy about it nor were consumer direct/trading standards.but have recently been told by him if i don't buy them quick he'd sell them on to a friend with a dog with no papers.. in principle i shouldnt by or have to buy them but couldnt bare to know another lesser dog has my boys birth certificate.

This is a difficult one. How much does he want for the papers? It all depends on what is more important to you; your pride and the principle of the matter, or having you dog's papers. Only you can decide this one. But I wouldn't pay extorniate amounts for the papers.

i can understand where you coming from why would he want to keep the papers for anyway if hes gave the dogs away but if you not going breed them you dont really need them. just dont talk to him or her again.

Steve wrote:i can understand where you coming from why would he want to keep the papers for anyway if hes gave the dogs away but if you not going breed them you dont really need them. just dont talk to him or her again.

I agree with that, it's odd that he wants to keep the papers away from you, but if you're not going to breed, there's no need, other than pride, for them.

We were told Molly is apparently pedigree, but there's no papers, and some other odd circumstances around who her mother actually is, but as we're not going to professionally show her, or breed her, I don't see the need for the papers.

as the others have said its ov no importance not havin the papers but in the same sence you dont want your boys pedigree being past onto another dog if i was you i would be telling the breeder if you dont get the papers for a standard charge you will be gettin in touch with the kc about passing on peds if hes into show dogs he going to come off worse than you.
ps is your boy castrated if not this will be his problem if he is castrated he got nothin to worry about

Do you intend to show him or breed him? If not, forget the papers, but inform the kennel club of the full story so that no other dog can then be registered without an inquiry.

its bit of a liberty if he want to sell you pappers,after you saving the dog from been stuck in kennels and not loved....

do you really need them if not sod the person that wants to sell you them..

well he does show ,has shown at Cruft's even my dog has been round show circuit placing in a few shows.he has bitch with sh ?? in title don't know wot that means with regards competitions.wouldn't mind having a dabble in local shows not round the country showing though ,just before i had him he was entered into a champ show ,but wasn't shown after..but i couldn't bare another dog having my boys birth cert/birth right.. .

The KC frown upon what he said he is going to do about selling them to someone else especially if their not even his pups thats how mutts and scruffs get to show because they paid the highest price for someone else papers, so i would get intouch with KC if he is not reasonable about the price.

i dont think mutt be able to get in shows but he could be using them with a dogs with health issues...

well im told by him i would find it hard to prove this ,ie my dogs papers on another dog ,but he is quoting me £150 for my boys docs

i would do what caryll said report it to kennel club to make sure he isn't showing an untested unhealthy dog, and forget about the papers, dont pay anthing to him or her

Personally i would buy the papers and then report him,just incase he does sell them on to some one else first because i could bear knowing he messing up my dogs lines.

I cant believe what i have just read A so called breeder/show goer moves on a dog without its paper work, and then demands payment for them

Do you know your dogs full KC name ???

Its ppl like this breeder person who gives the good honest ones a bad name

UMmmmmm just a thought..... perhaps your boy doesnt have papers????/
i mean if he is trying to charge you for them perhaps he is trying to palm you off...... do you think that is possible?
He may have had a bitch with litter of puppies to an unreg male and just wanted to get rid of them??/

The male looks like a well bred boy, so i'm betting he does have papers.

Mel Skora wrote:UMmmmmm just a thought..... perhaps your boy doesnt have papers????/
i mean if he is trying to charge you for them perhaps he is trying to palm you off...... do you think that is possible?
He may have had a bitch with litter of puppies to an unreg male and just wanted to get rid of them??/

ohh but he does i have copy of ped ,i work every day with the guy,i know the father of my dog and his mother which is his dog a lot of past champs in ped also ..

Denise wrote:I cant believe what i have just read A so called breeder/show goer moves on a dog without its paper work, and then demands payment for them

Do you know your dogs full KC name ???

Its ppl like this breeder person who gives the good honest ones a bad name

yes i do and he also has a breeder afix also

Denise wrote:The male looks like a well bred boy, so i'm betting he does have papers.

yes he is well bred

YOU WORK WITH THE GUY and he wont give you the papers????? what the hell... i smell an issue.. not sure what but somethign is not right here..
I wonder if he has given your papers to someone else.. or sold them... as you suggested.. blooming heck i hope you get to the bottom of this mate
x

I'm sorry but if what your saying is true, and theres no doubt in my mind you would lie about such a thing this breeder needs to be named.
If he is trying this with you now, how many times in the past has he done this and placed another dogs paper work on an imposter when the new dogs owners would'nt cough up the money for the paper work.

Denise wrote:I'm sorry but if what your saying is true, and theres no doubt in my mind you would lie about such a thing this breeder needs to be named.
If he is trying this with you now, how many times in the past has he done this and placed another dogs paper work on an imposter when the new dogs owners would'nt cough up the money for the paper work.

exactly!
shame on them.. they should be reported....

but what are the consiquences ( spell) for Mark if they are reported seeings as tho he works with them?

He may lose a so called friend.
He needs to inform the KC about all of this, if any thing that has been said about the paper work is in the form of an email show them that to back the claim.

Any rescued dog that comes from a stafford rescue does not go with papers this is done to protect the dog they are held with the rescue.
I am disgusted he has said this to you and I think its just to make you pay.
The dog will hold his kennel name and therefore as the dog was given to you I personally think £150 is not for the papers of the dog its to cover re registeration and to be honest why should he hand over the papers to you(dont mean to offend) why do you want them.
If you are in any doubt about his threat then inform the kennel club and the breed club nearest to you and his reputation wont count for anything and he may as well hang in the towel

It doesn't cost £150 too re register a dog, plus why would the dog need to be re registered ... its already registered. A new owner would just pay for transfer of ownership which is under £20.

i think he's or was hoping he could keep a little hold on my boy,maybe show him again when older, tbh has caused a few heated rows at work tbh,when he'd drop a 'hows my dog keeping' etc to which i promptly corrected him as to who's dog he was as ive now had him longer than he did ..and checked my position with trading standards/consumer direct.

The dog is registered to the kennel it was bred from I didnt mean it would cost £150 to re register or change ownership.
I will put it another way the dog was kept as they thought it would be good quality for showing it didnt work out that way so the dog was rehomed to a pet home (I dont agree with this) the first owner has kept hold of the papers and the kennel club still think he has the dog the first owner will think why does mark want the papers does he want to breed and use my kennel reputation maybe so £150 is to cover the costs and some extra for the dogs papers. The dog is not really worth the same without his papers does that make sense

markeB wrote:i think he's or was hoping he could keep a little hold on my boy,maybe show him again when older, tbh has caused a few heated rows at work tbh,when he'd drop a 'hows my dog keeping' etc to which i promptly corrected him as to who's dog he was as ive now had him longer than he did ..and checked my position with trading standards/consumer direct.

you have hit the nail on the head mark as he still has the papers he still has input in the dog so you need to both calm down compromise and sort something out for the sake of the dog

gem wrote:Any rescued dog that comes from a stafford rescue does not go with papers this is done to protect the dog they are held with the rescue.
I am disgusted he has said this to you and I think its just to make you pay.
The dog will hold his kennel name and therefore as the dog was given to you I personally think £150 is not for the papers of the dog its to cover re registeration and to be honest why should he hand over the papers to you(dont mean to offend) why do you want them.
If you are in any doubt about his threat then inform the kennel club and the breed club nearest to you and his reputation wont count for anything and he may as well hang in the towel

mmm my boy isnt a rescue ..also i would assume hed want £150 for the slip,then id probably have to pay for re reg my self on top ..

I get what you mean, but if the guy was so worried about his new owner breeding from him and using his KC name desexing him before moving him on would of sorted that.
This paper work belongs to this dog, whether his desexed or not, show dog or ex show dog who now lounges around on the sofa IMO

a little while ago i was poo poo'd about this subject people here saying it doesnt go on ,maybe i should have said i was living it my self,but would still hate another pooch getting my boys papers .so i think that negates the 'protecting his reputation' notion tbh in my opinion

Denise wrote:I get what you mean, but if the guy was so worried about his new owner breeding from him and using his KC name desexing him before moving him on would of sorted that.
This paper work belongs to this dog, whether his desexed or not, show dog or ex show dog who now lounges around on the sofa IMO

sorry but neither of my dogs lounges around on sofas to any great extent,loads of walks ,play time ,huggs.

I didnt say your boy was a rescue im just saying that its standard practice to hold onto the pedigree papers. and yes you would probably have to pay the £20 pound the papers are a contract when the pups are registered there can be many terms and conditions around breeding showing ect and in the eyes of the law you are the owner but the breeder still has input.
You could write everything down and present it to the kc but it would be much better if you both could be mature and sort it out for the dogs best intrests

gem wrote:

markeB wrote:i think he's or was hoping he could keep a little hold on my boy,maybe show him again when older, tbh has caused a few heated rows at work tbh,when he'd drop a 'hows my dog keeping' etc to which i promptly corrected him as to who's dog he was as ive now had him longer than he did ..and checked my position with trading standards/consumer direct.

you have hit the nail on the head mark as he still has the papers he still has input in the dog so you need to both calm down compromise and sort something out for the sake of the dog

i could my self do as he is saying he will do and get a set of dodgy papers ,i believe he couldnt show my dog any way as ive had him microchipped and as i recall micro chip details hav eto be on kc papers ??

markeB wrote:

Denise wrote:I get what you mean, but if the guy was so worried about his new owner breeding from him and using his KC name desexing him before moving him on would of sorted that.
This paper work belongs to this dog, whether his desexed or not, show dog or ex show dog who now lounges around on the sofa IMO

sorry but neither of my dogs lounges around on sofas to any great extent,loads of walks ,play time ,huggs.

I meant it as a figure of speech, not that they spend their whole time sleeping on the sofa

markeB wrote:a little while ago i was poo poo'd about this subject people here saying it doesnt go on ,maybe i should have said i was living it my self,but would still hate another pooch getting my boys papers .so i think that negates the 'protecting his reputation' notion tbh in my opinion

What goes on ? another dog getting your dogs papers is not on inform the kc its bang out of order put a stop to it but tbh I think hes just trying it on with you

markeB wrote:

gem wrote:

markeB wrote:i think he's or was hoping he could keep a little hold on my boy,maybe show him again when older, tbh has caused a few heated rows at work tbh,when he'd drop a 'hows my dog keeping' etc to which i promptly corrected him as to who's dog he was as ive now had him longer than he did ..and checked my position with trading standards/consumer direct.

you have hit the nail on the head mark as he still has the papers he still has input in the dog so you need to both calm down compromise and sort something out for the sake of the dog

i could my self do as he is saying he will do and get a set of dodgy papers ,i believe he couldnt show my dog any way as ive had him microchipped and as i recall micro chip details hav eto be on kc papers ??

If the dog was chipped after it was registered no it doesnt have to be on the papers.
Do you not think you could talk it through with him

''If the dog was chipped after it was registered no it doesnt have to be on the papers.
Do you not think you could talk it through with him''



oh..but he's led me to believe the chip details have to be on there..i believe he's shown for about 15 years .i believe he's got a litter due in a little while also..

markeB wrote:''If the dog was chipped after it was registered no it doesnt have to be on the papers.
Do you not think you could talk it through with him''



oh..but he's led me to believe the chip details have to be on there..i believe he's shown for about 15 years .i believe he's got a litter due in a little while also..

iv got all of my boys ped and papers and you dont have to have the chip detailes on there if there reg to you before the chipping i think im right in saying they need to be put on if your going to show in different countrys

markeB wrote:well he does show ,has shown at Cruft's even my dog has been round show circuit placing in a few shows.he has bitch with sh ?? in title don't know wot that means with regards competitions.wouldn't mind having a dabble in local shows not round the country showing though ,just before i had him he was entered into a champ show ,but wasn't shown after..but i couldn't bare another dog having my boys birth cert/birth right.. .

I take it you mean he has a bitch with 'ch' before it's name, not 'sh'? If so, it means that bitch is a UK Champion.

MissRogue wrote:The KC frown upon what he said he is going to do about selling them to someone else especially if their not even his pups thats how mutts and scruffs get to show because they paid the highest price for someone else papers, so i would get intouch with KC if he is not reasonable about the price.

The Kennel Club don't frown on it, it's against their rules & regs & they can ban someone from showing/breeding/registering their dogs because of it.

Denise wrote:I'm sorry but if what your saying is true, and theres no doubt in my mind you would lie about such a thing this breeder needs to be named.
If he is trying this with you now, how many times in the past has he done this and placed another dogs paper work on an imposter when the new dogs owners would'nt cough up the money for the paper work.

I agree.

gem wrote:Any rescued dog that comes from a stafford rescue does not go with papers this is done to protect the dog they are held with the rescue.
I am disgusted he has said this to you and I think its just to make you pay.
The dog will hold his kennel name and therefore as the dog was given to you I personally think £150 is not for the papers of the dog its to cover re registeration and to be honest why should he hand over the papers to you(dont mean to offend) why do you want them.
If you are in any doubt about his threat then inform the kennel club and the breed club nearest to you and his reputation wont count for anything and he may as well hang in the towel

This isn't a 'rescue' dog, officially. It's a dog that's been handed over as a 'gift' if you like. It's a private thing. No, he doesn't have to hand over the docs, but he has no right to charge for them. That's extortion.

markeB wrote:i think he's or was hoping he could keep a little hold on my boy,maybe show him again when older, tbh has caused a few heated rows at work tbh,when he'd drop a 'hows my dog keeping' etc to which i promptly corrected him as to who's dog he was as ive now had him longer than he did ..and checked my position with trading standards/consumer direct.

You need to get something in writing re: the ownership of this dog. It sounds shady to me, and you could have problems later on. Have you tried sugesting that you're going to get him castrated (I know you're not, but he doesn't!)? That might make him sit up & take notice.

When all is said & done, it's the future of this dog that counts. And at the moment it seems very uncertain. Will this 'breeder' claim the dog back at some time & say "The deal was only a 'loan' of the dog for a while" - then you have a legal fight on your hands which you could well lose.

This so-called breeder is breaking the law - not just Kennel Club rules & regs, but the law of the land by selling on fake registration papers. The Kennel Club MUST be made aware of it, and if necessary you should get legal advice on your position as 'owner' of this dog.

After abit of digging and searching i know the KC name of your dog, and the blokes affix

I havent got a problem with the guy moving on this dog, as it happens. The dog was found a top class home so thats fine in my books. Its the selling of the paper work i have a problem with and threatening to hang the papers on an unregistered dog if the now new owner does'nt cough up quick.

MarkeB, do you have a problem with us knowing the breeder's name/prefix? Just wondered if anyone else here would know of them?

i have purposely stopped short of naming my dog etc as it would cause problems .i just asked for peoples views and thought on my predicament .i am m not out to make money on or from my boy from ,he's deeply loved by me and my family.i could just cough and pay for the papers as i believe their his birth right and in principle should be passed on with him .you wouldn't give someone a car and hold the log book or sell it on to someone to ring another car,etc etc .

Totally agree with you, the paper work belong to your boy as their his by birth.
The breeder could endorse his reg papers before giving them too you if his worried about you studding the dog out.

Maybe suggest to him he does this if he has any doubt about handing over his paper work.

My doubts in all this are that there is a hint that the papers will be sold on to another dog's owner. That's deception, fraud & is illegal, as well as against the Kennel Club rules. That's why, no matter what, the Kennel Club must be informed.

If I was in marks shoes my priority would be to get the papers I would make a offer and through disscusion secure them as no matter what anyone says if you don't have proof of what he's saying what can you do. I'm not saying its right but up to £150 for a beautiful boy and his ped is a small price to pay

It's still extortion & illegal!

I no its disgusting but as soon as I had them then I would then inform the breed club.but I can see the argument from both sides the breeder has not been straight with mark though he moved the dog on but still wanted input like I said the priority is to secure the papers as he owns the dog and mark has to prove otherwise.

Fair point,
I would get those papers.... so that you have ownership,
and then go straight to the kennel club... infact i would have my mobile phone on record just to make sure you have evidence if you need it..
either way they are in the Poo...
silly people..
I THOUGHT breeders of this standard actually cared for the blooming dogs.

Mel Skora wrote:Fair point,
I would get those papers.... so that you have ownership,
and then go straight to the kennel club... infact i would have my mobile phone on record just to make sure you have evidence if you need it..
either way they are in the Poo...
silly people..
I THOUGHT breeders of this standard actually cared for the blooming dogs.

So did I mel I'm shocked to hear this and if other kennels knew he would be frowned upon but until mark gets the ped or informs the (breed club of wales) then they will follow the ped name and ensure no pups or registered or the named dog is not in the show world. Something like this could ruin the said person so he would get his rewards no doubt about it.