Personal

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Personal

Post by Paris1990 on Tue Jun 13 2017, 12:50

Hi Everyone,

Me and my partner have different opinions on how to raise Hank, and because I'm new to this but my partner has has dogs his whole life he thinks he's right, we are arguing a lot lately over Hank he is saying I'm spoiling him and ruining him and that he's going to turn into a bad dog and turn one day because I don't believe in punishment.

My OH thinks that when he has accidents in the house he is doing them because he cant get his own way, not the fact he's only 5 months old and doesn't have complete control over his bladder, if he is biting anything or chewing he instantly wants to punish him and when I said no and try to give him a toy or distract him we have a huge row over it, he growls at my partner but doesn't growl at me and is constantly at my feet or hiding behide me if he shouts at him for anything, I have basically been the only one training him with the clicker etc and getting him to come to me, hank knows my OH is "pack leader" as he listens to him straight away but I think maybe in fear Sad

He's currently battling with a bit of depression so I know he doesn't mean how extreme he is being but its so hard to not believe it when its happening which is right now, he has threatened to kick the pair of us out and right now that doesn't seem such a bad idea while we are currently still arguing but once we both calm down that's far from what we both want.

He knows that if Hank goes I go. I don't know what to do, because its not like I let Hank get away with every naughty thing he does, I've been doing a 3 strikes and your in time out when he is being really naughty but my OH says that too soft with him and it doesn't work, but infact is does! Hank is clever and knows.

Honest opinions needed here, Family and friends are too biased towards me to that's why I've called to you guys.
avatar
Paris1990
"Top Rank" Staffy-bull-terrier Member


Status Status :
Online
Offline

Female
Location : Cumbria
United Kingdom.
Relationship Status : Engaged
Dogs Name(s) : Hank
Dog(s) Ages : 11 Months
Dog Gender(s) : Male
Join date : 2017-05-02
Support total : 33
Posts : 335

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Personal

Post by Mia05 on Tue Jun 13 2017, 13:12

Punishment isnt the answer you are absoluely correct. Hank cannot help the odd toilet accident in the house i believe punishment will make the problem worse. Depression is a bad thing to go through and a puppy is quite hard to cope with as much as someones own issues. Perhaps when o.h feels things are a bit much you could go for a walk and perhaps discuss some of hanks weak points and deal with each thing individually. Don't lose heart you will get through these issues as you say hank is still a pup and everyday is a new experience for you all.

Mia05
Staffy-Bull-Terrier VIP Member
Staffy-Bull-Terrier VIP Member

Status Status :
Online
Offline

Female
Age : 36
Location : Scotland
Scotland
Relationship Status : Single
Dogs Name(s) : Mia
Dog(s) Ages : 2005-2016 rip mia
Dog Gender(s) : Female
Join date : 2014-07-20
Support total : 1301
Posts : 24317

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Personal

Post by Paris1990 on Tue Jun 13 2017, 13:26

At the moment I can't do right with him, I have tried talking things through with him but because I don't agree with him he see's it as me defending Hank if he does something we don't want him to do, which I am not I just don't want to punish him, right now he doesn't see the difference in this and that's what's causing us to argue as bad as we are.

I have told him we need to get through his depression together but he's at a stage where rational thoughts aren't there what so ever, we have been down this road already so I'm just waiting for the light at the end of the tunnel to pop up Sad
avatar
Paris1990
"Top Rank" Staffy-bull-terrier Member


Status Status :
Online
Offline

Female
Location : Cumbria
United Kingdom.
Relationship Status : Engaged
Dogs Name(s) : Hank
Dog(s) Ages : 11 Months
Dog Gender(s) : Male
Join date : 2017-05-02
Support total : 33
Posts : 335

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Personal

Post by Mia05 on Tue Jun 13 2017, 13:32

Oh dear Sad have you thought of asking o.h to change his medication quite often some medications don"t work and its a case of finding the correct dose. Hopefully things even out soon.

Mia05
Staffy-Bull-Terrier VIP Member
Staffy-Bull-Terrier VIP Member

Status Status :
Online
Offline

Female
Age : 36
Location : Scotland
Scotland
Relationship Status : Single
Dogs Name(s) : Mia
Dog(s) Ages : 2005-2016 rip mia
Dog Gender(s) : Female
Join date : 2014-07-20
Support total : 1301
Posts : 24317

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Personal

Post by Paris1990 on Tue Jun 13 2017, 13:53

He isn't on any, refuses to seek medical help (for anything) My positivity got him through it last time but we didn't have hank so 100% of my attention isn't on him this time round.
avatar
Paris1990
"Top Rank" Staffy-bull-terrier Member


Status Status :
Online
Offline

Female
Location : Cumbria
United Kingdom.
Relationship Status : Engaged
Dogs Name(s) : Hank
Dog(s) Ages : 11 Months
Dog Gender(s) : Male
Join date : 2017-05-02
Support total : 33
Posts : 335

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Personal

Post by LizP on Tue Jun 13 2017, 14:35

I might have to type this in stages, Paris, as I have to go out shortly and when I get going I can type A LOT Laughing

First, I am qualified to explain about training, literally. I used to be a professional horse trainer, specialising in problem behaviours. I have studied animal psychology with internationally reputed trainers. I have read masses and actually put it into practice with some very troubled animals, as well as youngsters. That's not to say that anyone else's opinion isn't worth as much as mine, more to say that if your OH queries how we know what we're talking about, well that's how I know! I also currently support the staff training our rescue dogs at Danaher, so yes I know that the methods and theories I learned for horses also work for dogs.

There are two info sheets that are on here:

https://staffy-bull-terrier.niceboard.com/t66619-training-and-behaviour-information-sheets

that are particularly relevant, the first two on the list. What I have put in those is current, modern, tried and tested, even scientifically proven. There is a brief recap on the differences between reinforcement (something that makes you want to do something again) and punishments (deterrants) but it might be helpful for you if I go a bit deeper into punishments, to bolster your arguments.

A punishment is either something you give or take away to make someone, in this case a dog, not want to do something again. The dog learns to associate him doing X with the punishment that will follow, wants to avoid the punishment so doesn't do X. That sounds fine and dandy, except how we see the punishment and the dog's understanding of it is very often not how the dog sees it, and that's usually due to poor timing.

Animals associate two things when they happen either together or within seconds (and I mean 2 or 3 seconds) of it happening, and when it happens consistently. For example, if a dog nips you and you immediately turn your back, he can learn to understand that his nip caused you to turn away. He doesn't want that so he stops nipping. Clearly it's more complicated because you have what drives him to nip and any other actions he perceives, etc., but that's the essence.

However, say your dogs nips you and you then stand up, start shouting and give him a smack. That all takes quite a while. What he may then learn is that when you stand up you turn into a nutter and hurt him. Nothing to do with his original nip, more to do with you standing up. He can then start to become fearful of you standing up.

This is why you get dogs who cower when people come home and find stuff ripped up by a puppy. The dog has no idea it's because he's chewed your £200 handbag, he has just learned from experience that you often get home and turn into a banshee. He gives you want's called appeasement behaviours because he's scared of you, not because he knows he's done wrong.

The other point before I shoot out - if Hank (aged just 5 months) is growling at your OH, I would suggest your OH takes heed. Hank is saying 'I'm scared of you, I don't want you to come near me so I'm trying to make myself fierce to keep you away'. If he's doing that a 5 months, what will he do when he's a fully grown adult male staffie? Your OH is on his way to getting bitten if he's not careful.

And one step further, he may also be creating a fear of men in general. It's not impossible that he learns that you (female) are ok but your OH (male) is not, therefore female humans are ok but you need to be wary of males.

I have to go out now as I have an appointment but I'm more than happy to give you any support you need on this later, if the above isn't enough.

There is also on info sheet on external resources with links to books and videos by professional dog trainers. These are only a few but they are good. I'm pretty sure some of the videos will cover why excessive punishment (technically speaking) doesn't work as well. If your OH doesn't believe you, doesn't believe us, he might believe them.

Back later...


Staffy-Bull-Terrier Online Community
Meet the forum staff - Who's Who
Please read the forum rules - Click Here.

avatar
LizP
Staffy-Bull-Terrier Admin
Staffy-Bull-Terrier Admin

Status Status :
Online
Offline

Female
Location : Essex
Luxembourg
Relationship Status : Married
Dogs Name(s) : Chaos, Nola and Millie
Dog(s) Ages : 4, 10, and 3
Dog Gender(s) : one boy, two girls
Join date : 2014-11-02
Support total : 1137
Posts : 5597

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Personal

Post by Paris1990 on Tue Jun 13 2017, 17:51

Thank you so much Liz, hank growls at the OH when he is telling him
Not to do something so this is what is making my OH say that I've ruined him because I just let him get away with anything, when in fact I don't I just he a lot more patience than he does.

Hank has growled at other women before that have came to the house and whenever the door knocks if it's just me and him he barks a lot, but doesn't do it with the OH.

We are on kind of speaking terms now so I will probably be able to put across some of your points with how they remember what we do etc as it makes sense to me!
avatar
Paris1990
"Top Rank" Staffy-bull-terrier Member


Status Status :
Online
Offline

Female
Location : Cumbria
United Kingdom.
Relationship Status : Engaged
Dogs Name(s) : Hank
Dog(s) Ages : 11 Months
Dog Gender(s) : Male
Join date : 2017-05-02
Support total : 33
Posts : 335

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Personal

Post by Mia05 on Tue Jun 13 2017, 17:59

Very well written liz

Mia05
Staffy-Bull-Terrier VIP Member
Staffy-Bull-Terrier VIP Member

Status Status :
Online
Offline

Female
Age : 36
Location : Scotland
Scotland
Relationship Status : Single
Dogs Name(s) : Mia
Dog(s) Ages : 2005-2016 rip mia
Dog Gender(s) : Female
Join date : 2014-07-20
Support total : 1301
Posts : 24317

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Personal

Post by LizP on Tue Jun 13 2017, 18:32

A lot of people say that a dog is 'allowed to get away with something'. That, to me, implies that a dog is doing something deliberately, that he is concious of what he has done and that it is wrong or at least pushing the boundaries. 'Wrong' in this sense is wrong for us. How on earth can a dog know what is wrong in our eyes? It's like saying a dog's been 'naughty' and knows it - how on earth can a dog even begin to understand the human concept of naughty?

Every single client I ever went to, without exception, where they described their horse's behaviour as willful, naughty, rude, etc. had a reason that made sense to a horse, rather than to a human. They do things because they don't know otherwise, because they don't understand what we want and, mainly, because it gets them what they think they want. That's often what they do want, of course!

Our job as trainers is to give them alternative ways of getting what they want, of making sure they understand what to do and how to do it, so that their goal is achieved in a way that is acceptable to us. That's sometimes not as simple as it sounds because dogs have instinctive behaviours (barking, chewing, etc) that are strongly wired, but it can be achieved with the 3 Cs - clarity, consistency and calmness.

Give a dog reason to WANT to do something and he'll achieve amazing things. Browbeat a dog into doing something and he'll do the bare minimum. Reward a dog and he'll become confident in everything, punish a dog and he'll loose confidence - which Hank is showing signs of I'm afraid.

Have a look at Ziggy Trixx, he's a totally amazing little staffie here in Essex. What he can do is astonishing, and it's all done with rewards and fun. Is he spoilt? No, he's awesome! (by the way, what is spoilt in a dog?)

https://www.facebook.com/ziggytrixx/app/212104595551052/?ref=page_internal

And one last thought for now - if you can achieve what you need/want using kind and loving methods, why on earth would you want to do it any other way?


Staffy-Bull-Terrier Online Community
Meet the forum staff - Who's Who
Please read the forum rules - Click Here.

avatar
LizP
Staffy-Bull-Terrier Admin
Staffy-Bull-Terrier Admin

Status Status :
Online
Offline

Female
Location : Essex
Luxembourg
Relationship Status : Married
Dogs Name(s) : Chaos, Nola and Millie
Dog(s) Ages : 4, 10, and 3
Dog Gender(s) : one boy, two girls
Join date : 2014-11-02
Support total : 1137
Posts : 5597

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Personal

Post by Nifty staffy on Tue Jun 13 2017, 18:57

Nothing to add other than sending positive vibes your way Paris, and thank you Liz for educating us all
avatar
Nifty staffy
Staffy-Bull-Terrier Support Member
Staffy-Bull-Terrier Support Member

Status Status :
Online
Offline

Female
France
Dogs Name(s) : Nifty
Dog(s) Ages : 15/04/2017
Dog Gender(s) : Female
Join date : 2017-05-26
Support total : 74
Posts : 598

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Personal

Post by Mistys Mum on Tue Jun 13 2017, 18:58

Wonderful advice from Liz as always.


Staffy-Bull-Terrier Online Community
Meet the forum staff - Who's Who
Please read the forum rules - Click Here.

avatar
Mistys Mum
Staffy-Bull-Terrier Global Mod
Staffy-Bull-Terrier Global Mod

Status Status :
Online
Offline

Female
Age : 38
Location : Surrey
England
Relationship Status : Married
Dogs Name(s) : Misty
Dog(s) Ages : 16 months
Dog Gender(s) : Female
Join date : 2015-04-02
Support total : 409
Posts : 2232

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Personal

Post by -Ian- on Tue Jun 13 2017, 19:22

Yup can't add anything that Liz hasn't already said.


Staffy-Bull-Terrier Online Community
Meet the forum staff - Who's Who
Please read the forum rules - Click Here.

avatar
-Ian-
Staffy-Bull-Terrier Admin
Staffy-Bull-Terrier Admin

Status Status :
Online
Offline

Male
Age : 50
Location : Surrey
United Kingdom.
Dogs Name(s) : Anything, she's Deaf !
Dog(s) Ages : About 11 maybe
Dog Gender(s) : Girl
Join date : 2014-01-31
Support total : 2780
Posts : 21949

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Personal

Post by Paris1990 on Tue Jun 13 2017, 19:39

Thanks Liz you're a star! Will have to take screenshots of it all to look back on, but again thank you Smile
avatar
Paris1990
"Top Rank" Staffy-bull-terrier Member


Status Status :
Online
Offline

Female
Location : Cumbria
United Kingdom.
Relationship Status : Engaged
Dogs Name(s) : Hank
Dog(s) Ages : 11 Months
Dog Gender(s) : Male
Join date : 2017-05-02
Support total : 33
Posts : 335

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Personal

Post by LizP on Tue Jun 13 2017, 20:05

You're more than welcome, anything I and everyone on here can help with please just ask.


Staffy-Bull-Terrier Online Community
Meet the forum staff - Who's Who
Please read the forum rules - Click Here.

avatar
LizP
Staffy-Bull-Terrier Admin
Staffy-Bull-Terrier Admin

Status Status :
Online
Offline

Female
Location : Essex
Luxembourg
Relationship Status : Married
Dogs Name(s) : Chaos, Nola and Millie
Dog(s) Ages : 4, 10, and 3
Dog Gender(s) : one boy, two girls
Join date : 2014-11-02
Support total : 1137
Posts : 5597

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Personal

Post by Goblin on Tue Jun 13 2017, 20:21

Can't add anything to the dog training, but I've had pretty brutal clinical depression, on and off since I was 14 and I know what you mean about the bouncing back up, but sometimes you just can't do it without either medication or therapy or both. It really isn't something you can treat long term without help from professionals. It's not fair on you to try and cope with him on your own, nevermind with a puppy too and you'll end up being so exhausted by it all. I know how people can be about seeking help for mental health, but it really is like not getting help for diabetes or heart disease. Would you be able to speak to your GP to get an idea of treatment available in your area? Just so you know what the options are if he somehow changes his mind? I wish you all the luck, and please take care of yourself first before you look after him and the puppy.
avatar
Goblin
Staffy-Bull-Terrier Support Member
Staffy-Bull-Terrier Support Member

Status Status :
Online
Offline

United Kingdom.
Dogs Name(s) : Gizmo
Dog(s) Ages : 01/05/2014
Dog Gender(s) : boy
Join date : 2015-02-14
Support total : 82
Posts : 1315

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Personal

Post by Mia05 on Tue Jun 13 2017, 20:39

Can't add anything either

Mia05
Staffy-Bull-Terrier VIP Member
Staffy-Bull-Terrier VIP Member

Status Status :
Online
Offline

Female
Age : 36
Location : Scotland
Scotland
Relationship Status : Single
Dogs Name(s) : Mia
Dog(s) Ages : 2005-2016 rip mia
Dog Gender(s) : Female
Join date : 2014-07-20
Support total : 1301
Posts : 24317

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Personal

Post by Paris1990 on Wed Jun 14 2017, 10:27

Thanks Goblin, I have had it myself before I met my current partner and also had a dip while with him now over a year ago but I went to my GP and went to a private therapist he came along with me to one because he didn't seem to understand what was going on with me and she helped me so much I got over it and have since been okay and she got me to see everything differently and now I just see the good in every situation, this could be where our arguing stems from in regards to hank when he thinks I'm defending him. He is a lot better today as a good chat last night so will see how things get on. With having it myself I know how to talk to him to as you will know sometimes there is no talking to anyone when they are in the dark place Sad
avatar
Paris1990
"Top Rank" Staffy-bull-terrier Member


Status Status :
Online
Offline

Female
Location : Cumbria
United Kingdom.
Relationship Status : Engaged
Dogs Name(s) : Hank
Dog(s) Ages : 11 Months
Dog Gender(s) : Male
Join date : 2017-05-02
Support total : 33
Posts : 335

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Personal

Post by Goblin on Wed Jun 14 2017, 11:33

So hard when you've got such different ideas in training too.
avatar
Goblin
Staffy-Bull-Terrier Support Member
Staffy-Bull-Terrier Support Member

Status Status :
Online
Offline

United Kingdom.
Dogs Name(s) : Gizmo
Dog(s) Ages : 01/05/2014
Dog Gender(s) : boy
Join date : 2015-02-14
Support total : 82
Posts : 1315

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Personal

Post by LizP on Wed Jun 14 2017, 11:50

Dogs can be a great help, if you let them. Trick training might be a thought, watching a dog pick up a trick and seeing them be all pleased with themselves is very motivating. I know it helped a couple of horse clients with their depression.


Staffy-Bull-Terrier Online Community
Meet the forum staff - Who's Who
Please read the forum rules - Click Here.

avatar
LizP
Staffy-Bull-Terrier Admin
Staffy-Bull-Terrier Admin

Status Status :
Online
Offline

Female
Location : Essex
Luxembourg
Relationship Status : Married
Dogs Name(s) : Chaos, Nola and Millie
Dog(s) Ages : 4, 10, and 3
Dog Gender(s) : one boy, two girls
Join date : 2014-11-02
Support total : 1137
Posts : 5597

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Personal

Post by Paris1990 on Wed Jun 14 2017, 13:13

one of the things he was saying was that Hank doesn't listen to him unless he is telling him off, which instantly made me sad. but he hasn't been training him like I have so I have told him he needs to pick up that clicker and pull his finger out! It's me that's been putting all the hard work in and that's why he runs to me when I call his name.
avatar
Paris1990
"Top Rank" Staffy-bull-terrier Member


Status Status :
Online
Offline

Female
Location : Cumbria
United Kingdom.
Relationship Status : Engaged
Dogs Name(s) : Hank
Dog(s) Ages : 11 Months
Dog Gender(s) : Male
Join date : 2017-05-02
Support total : 33
Posts : 335

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Personal

Post by LizP on Wed Jun 14 2017, 13:30

Or maybe he doesn't listen to him because he's telling him off...


Staffy-Bull-Terrier Online Community
Meet the forum staff - Who's Who
Please read the forum rules - Click Here.

avatar
LizP
Staffy-Bull-Terrier Admin
Staffy-Bull-Terrier Admin

Status Status :
Online
Offline

Female
Location : Essex
Luxembourg
Relationship Status : Married
Dogs Name(s) : Chaos, Nola and Millie
Dog(s) Ages : 4, 10, and 3
Dog Gender(s) : one boy, two girls
Join date : 2014-11-02
Support total : 1137
Posts : 5597

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Personal

Post by Paris1990 on Wed Jun 14 2017, 14:12

we nearly had a incident yesterday with hank trying to jump the fence to get to me when I went to the shop, and he blamed me for that Sad
avatar
Paris1990
"Top Rank" Staffy-bull-terrier Member


Status Status :
Online
Offline

Female
Location : Cumbria
United Kingdom.
Relationship Status : Engaged
Dogs Name(s) : Hank
Dog(s) Ages : 11 Months
Dog Gender(s) : Male
Join date : 2017-05-02
Support total : 33
Posts : 335

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Personal

Post by I❤dogs on Thu Jun 15 2017, 08:37

I agree with Crystal & Liz completely. I have no advice about the oh I'm sorry, I'm a long term single so pretty useless on that side of things. I've had bad depression & anxiety but needed medication to get through it. I hope you can sort it out as that sounds very stressful. I can't imagine anyone being harsh with my dogs tbh, positive, fun & distraction always works for me
avatar
I❤dogs
Staffy-Bull-Terrier Support Member
Staffy-Bull-Terrier Support Member

Status Status :
Online
Offline

Female
Age : 38
Location : Aberdeenshire
Scotland
Relationship Status : Single
Dogs Name(s) : Saxon and Rebel
Dog(s) Ages : 21/03/11 and 13/02/17
Dog Gender(s) : Boys
Join date : 2017-02-25
Support total : 72
Posts : 692

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Personal

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum