I have an alligator...

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I have an alligator...

Post by ninz on Sun Apr 26 2015, 21:14

So Miley has done what Casper never has-drawn blood! Thankfully it was mine and not one of the kids or Casper. I swear she's an alligator and not a puppy as those teeth are brutal! So she is having time out. As I've never had Casper do more than 'mouth' I am lost on how to deal with this one. It's not just me she has bitten, she what taken a few bites out of Casper, at one point she had hold of the wrinkly bits on his face bless him. All credit to him he did nothing more than pin her to the floor. She did get time out for biting him, then took a chunk from my finger when I let her come back to us. So the best way to stop the mini alligator using those teeth on us or Casper? I feel for him and can't expect him to be so patient with her and not eventually turn if she carries this on as those teeth blooming hurt. I tried redirecting her with a toy when she was harassing him but she wasn't interested....unless it was the toy he had, then she was very interested in having a toy! Will the time out alone work?
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Re: I have an alligator...

Post by Mia05 on Sun Apr 26 2015, 21:15

Is the time out in the same or a different room?

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Re: I have an alligator...

Post by ninz on Sun Apr 26 2015, 21:20

In the same room in her crate. He's still in the same room too, by my feet getting lots of fuss for being a good boy. She's crying a little but is getting no attention.
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Re: I have an alligator...

Post by Mia05 on Sun Apr 26 2015, 21:22

Is there a chance of timeout in a different room this may be better in the long run and she may begin to resent the crate i wouldnt put her in the cage for timeout if you plan using this as her bed.

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Re: I have an alligator...

Post by -Ian- on Sun Apr 26 2015, 21:27

Casper will tell her off when he's had enough and Miley will learn from that, may take one or two tellings off before effective though, just watch that things don't escalate.

As for humans, remove said body part and replace with a toy every time, the message will get through eventually but all the family have to stick to this rule and no playing fingers in front of her face.

Time outs are probably ineffective as she may well not know what she's done wrong however, time outs when things start to get out of hand are effective as it will give her time to calm down.


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Re: I have an alligator...

Post by ninz on Sun Apr 26 2015, 21:41

This might sound silly but I don't want her loose in a seperate room. The day Casper came to me I shut him in the kitchen and he ended up hurting his leg by jumping at the door so much, his first few nights were spent in the vets and then he was on total crate rest when he came home. So I would prefer to have her crated or in the same room just incase she hurts herself.
Ian, my concern is that he will hurt her if she doesn't learn fast to stop being a little menace. She appears to be totally fearless and quite possibly senseless too lol. She's been hiding under the sofa, waiting for him to get close enough then biting whatever part of him is within her reach..he's too big to fit under the sofa. Unfortunately his favourite spot in the house is in front of the sofa. Should I move her away when she is biting him or just let him do whatever he feels he need to until she eventually learns to leave him be? At the moment I honestly couldn't blame him if he did hurt her, not that I want him to but I could totally understand why if she keeps sinking those teeth into him.
When I tried to remove my finger she was growling and biting harder. The only way I've managed to get her to open that mouth was by pinning her myself.
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Re: I have an alligator...

Post by -Ian- on Sun Apr 26 2015, 22:06

Moving her away is fine, your there and can see what the situation is. He will tell her off eventually, that's how they learn. Casper sounds pretty tolerant but just make sure they aren't alone should it escalate but do let him tell her off else she won't learn.

The growling isn't aggression with you, she doesn't know what that is yet she's too young. If she has your finger between those razor teeth hold her and gently prise her teeth apart and replace the finger/toe/leg with a toy Smile


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Re: I have an alligator...

Post by Rachel33 on Sun Apr 26 2015, 22:06

She's used to playing with her littermates - this is why they shouldn't leave too early as mum/siblings will teach them about this behaviour. Right now, Casper has no loyalty to her so could potentially do damage if she gets too much. Allow them to play and communicate, but if she gets too much and doesn't respond to his subtle "back off's" remove her before he really tells her off!

Crate isn't a great place for a negative time out, but is fine for a cool off as long as she has toys etc to keep her occupied, maybe add in some carrot sticks or a kong to occupy her too. I've got scars from puppy teeth lol, all sounds normal to me, just be consistent from day one.


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Re: I have an alligator...

Post by ninz on Sun Apr 26 2015, 22:16

Thanks for the advice. It will be a very long time before I leave them alone for even a split second. If I leave the room, one or both get put into their crate until I get back. Both do have their own toys in their crates 24/7 so they do have them when they are timed out.. I guess my idea of time out is just to withdraw all human attention. It's not so bad with Casper as I can just turn my back to him and he knows I'm not happy with him so I only really need to remove him when he is being boisterous just so he can cool down.
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Re: I have an alligator...

Post by JStaff on Sun Apr 26 2015, 22:44

Rachel33 wrote:She's used to playing with her littermates - this is why they shouldn't leave too early as mum/siblings will teach them about this behaviour. Right now, Casper has no loyalty to her so could potentially do damage if she gets too much. Allow them to play and communicate, but if she gets too much and doesn't respond to his subtle "back off's" remove her before he really tells her off!

Crate isn't a great place for a negative time out, but is fine for a cool off as long as she has toys etc to keep her occupied, maybe add in some carrot sticks or a kong to occupy her too. I've got scars from puppy teeth lol, all sounds normal to me, just be consistent from day one.

great advice Big Grin


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Re: I have an alligator...

Post by LizP on Mon Apr 27 2015, 08:21

One of the first things I like to teach a dog is 'leave it', which effectively means open your jaws to release what's in your mouth. It's so easy to teach. Have some treats in your pocket and give Miley a toy. When she's holding it, put a treat under her nose and say 'leave it'. She will (hopefully!) let go of the toy to take the treat. Give her the toy again and repeat. Do this on and off, just a couple of minutes at a time, until she gets the hang of it, then you can stop showing her the treat first but always give her one afterwards.

You should very soon have a dog that will let go of anything.

You sound really quite stressed about worst outcomes. Yes, they do exist and you're right to be aware, but at the same time you can create long term problems if Miley grows up in a stressed environment. You absolutely need to be vigilant when they are playing, but steel yourself to let them alone for just a minute when they are being quiet. Be near and keep your ear open, but don't feel you need to be right there every second.

Re the time out, I will turn/walk away from a dog who is behaving inappropriately but I'm not keen on time out in a crate or anywhere else as a punishment. Not only do you start to build up negative associations, you also miss the most important training tool which is the 'yes' after the no. There's a game we play on the horse psychology course, whereby someone has to guess what the rest of the group wants them to go but the only thing the group can say is 'no'. So say the action is to sit on the blue chair, if the person walks towards the chair but stops that's a 'no', because they weren't supposed to stop. The person will then usually go and find something else to try and leave the blue chair alone thinking it was wrong, so taking them away from the right track. It is so hard to try and explain what to do simply by saying no, you have also to say yes.

In the case of biting, you do need to say 'no' by taking your hands away, turning your back or even walking away a few steps. I also use the yelp method. Those things alone are, technically speaking, punishments. They are not what she wants, negative consequences of her actions. So you've already said no, now you need to go back to her and talk to her, giving her the chance to stand quietly without biting so you can praise her, so saying yes.

In a nutshell, it's 'not that, this'. Your timing needs to be clear (another reason time out isn't my tool of choice), so that she knows exactly what is no and what is yes.

That's really the basic principle of training - just enough negative to make the point, lots of positive to encourage, and all with clear timing.


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Re: I have an alligator...

Post by Mia05 on Mon Apr 27 2015, 09:40

Smile

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Re: I have an alligator...

Post by Lynn&Pete on Mon Apr 27 2015, 11:20

I can't help you with advice with the dogs playing as we've never had two dogs, but as far as the nipping you, following the advice above will help. Theia was the same and by following the above she came on leaps and bounds very quickly. Within a few weeks it had almost stopped and had definitely stopped as far as drawing blood!
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Re: I have an alligator...

Post by tiltyed on Mon Apr 27 2015, 12:44

im having same problems with bella she can be good as gold most day but has spells of jumping up and biting more I say no worse it makes her ive tried the time out in another room but she is only nine weeks and just goes of doing something else any advice appreciated

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Re: I have an alligator...

Post by valiant87 on Mon Apr 27 2015, 21:13

Mia is still like a aligator and she is 4months old tomorrow, we have tried our best to train her, she's not as bad as before but still biting, how long have i got to get Mia trained before its too late or i need to get professional help?
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Re: I have an alligator...

Post by LizP on Tue Apr 28 2015, 08:08

Persist with the yelp/take hands away/walk away method. Be ultra consistent, everybody, and make sure your timing is spot on. The very first nip or attempt at a nip, yelp and walk away. Wait for just a few seconds, then go back and wait for a nice quiet puppy, then stroke gently and praise. Avoid high excitement bite games, such as your puppy running round chasing your hands, and try and keep your interactions with them calm. Make sure they have toys to chew, and you can play with them with the toys, just not directly with your hands. It's not going to be immediate but your puppies will learn that biting gets them the opposite of what they want and will stop.

Consistency and timing. Get those two and you'll make it.


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