Dominant puppy opinions

Hello all again,

Just would like to know your views regarding dominant vs submissive tendencies in puppies. I did a google search to find tips on how to stop excessive nipping and jumping in puppies.

I did the puppy aptitude test created by Joachim and Wendy Volhard and it came out that Saffy is mostly ones.....

Mostly One’s
This puppy has aggressive tendencies and is very dominant. He would not be a good match for families with children or elderly owners since he may be quick to bite. He would likely be a difficult dog to train and would require an experienced handler.

Im not sure how to take this, she is definitely a handful, she nips, scratches and jumps alot to the point of drawing blood but will back off when told, lunges, barks at us and sometimes just doesn't listen. However, she does allow us to stroke her all over her body, does respond to the 'leave' command 80% of the time and does allow us to take food from her and out of her mouth. She is trainable as I have taught her sit, retrieve, leave and down. She will also lay on her back for a belly rub calmly, but will also, at times, wriggle, bite and scratch.

This is one of many test sites online but it gives you the jist. The test is used to pick guide dogs etc.
http://www.raisingspot.com/adopting/puppy-aptitude-test

So I'm not sure what to make of it. I mean basically it says my puppy will be dominant aggressive with a tendency to bite. Scary stuff.

Any tips to tilting the balance in my favour? I don't really like Caesar Milans style. Any books that you can recommend?

Many thanks
Rach

It's crap. Sorry, but what else can I say? Dominance has nothing to do with aggression, other than a dominant dog is more likely to react to another dog taking the p*ss!

Dempsey is the most dominant dog I've ever had (and I've had a few), but he most certainly isn't aggressive. If another dog starts on him, he'll finish it! But he doesn't start it. He's brilliant with children, old people & disabled people (mental & physical).

The choosing of a guide dog is so different to choosing a family pet!

I only say from the experiences i have had but i think its totally possible.

I had a lab bitch who had something ridiculous like 12 puppies (unfortunately a lot of them were still born) but of the 4 that survived the first born and largest was the bully. He wouldn't let any other pups near the mum and im talking from the min they were born. We had to actively take him away for short period of time to let the others feed as the bitch wouldn't feed them if he was there - he ended up being rehomed at 5 weeks cause he was such a bruiser and his bullying of his siblings was risking harm to them in the physical sense now as he was three times the size of them. He however NEVER showed aggressive tendancies towards any humans or other dogs once he left the litter.

The other experience was a few months ago when my cousin and her friend had a puppy party for their two collie pups both bitches. The quiet one was pinned down most of the time by the other one and was screaming as the other pup bit at its neck and growled and attacked it. The other pup would not play with it, wouldnt go near the food bowl if it was there etc..basically it was terrified of the other dog and they were about 12 weeks old. The owner of the aggressive dog had to rehome it because it was snapping and attacking her child.

Hayley wrote:I only say from the experiences i have had but i think its totally possible.

I had a lab bitch who had something ridiculous like 12 puppies (unfortunately a lot of them were still born) but of the 4 that survived the first born and largest was the bully. He wouldn't let any other pups near the mum and im talking from the min they were born. We had to actively take him away for short period of time to let the others feed as the bitch wouldn't feed them if he was there - he ended up being rehomed at 5 weeks cause he was such a bruiser and his bullying of his siblings was risking harm to them in the physical sense now as he was three times the size of them. He however NEVER showed aggressive tendancies towards any humans or other dogs once he left the litter.

The other experience was a few months ago when my cousin and her friend had a puppy party for their two collie pups both bitches. The quiet one was pinned down most of the time by the other one and was screaming as the other pup bit at its neck and growled and attacked it. The other pup would not play with it, wouldnt go near the food bowl if it was there etc..basically it was terrified of the other dog and they were about 12 weeks old. The owner of the aggressive dog had to rehome it because it was snapping and attacking her child.

That's natural hierarchy, not aggression. If the pup was attacking the child, that's probably more to do with being homed too early, or not receiving the correct training (dog and child!).

But wouldn't the line be very blurred when the natural hierarchy turns to aggression?

Not at such a young age. A dominant puppy does need to be handled/trained differently to a submissive one, but dominance and out & out aggression are totally different.

I'd have to agree with Caryll, sounds like a load of rubbish to me although I don't have much experience with pups.

In adult dogs, dominance based agression is very rare I think. The most common type of agression is fear based and the dogs I know that show a lot of dominant behaviour are confident, not anxious or nervous.

My girl for example is top dog round here but she is not agressive with the other two at all, she's just the most confident and the two others willingly offer submissive behaviours to her most of the time

Lexi i would say is a dominant dog, but she takes this out in the form of aggression - she is not aggressive with dogs that are very calm and nonchalant only dogs that show any attention to her at all.

I believe very much in the idea of dominant and submissive behaviours in dogs, however, I don't think you can accurately categorise a puppy when they're still learning their place in the pack, learning about their environment and the world, and pushing their boundaries. Loki has a lot of submissive tendencies and his body language suggests he is, but when he's hyperactive he's a demon, he bites me like crazy and he looks demented and like he's being aggressive. After advice from people on here though, and also by observing more, I'm certain he's just playing and the reason he doesn't stop is because I've not yet learned to be assertive enough.

So...I don't know whether or not your pup is actually dominant, but observe her behaviour more and find out. If she is, it doesn't even matter much. By which I mean if she's naturally more dominant, it'll be slightly more difficult to put her in a lower place in the pack than a puppy who's naturally a follower, but it's not impossible and it certainly doesn't make her aggressive or dangerous. It just means it requires more work from you to show her you're the leader.

My previous dog, Zac, was a boxer and my dad was the head of the pack, but then it was pretty much the dog second and us all below him . Anyway, he wasn't aggressive to people in the slightest. He was dog-aggressive, and it was only because he wasn't socialised as a puppy (we got him when he was two or three years old) and also because there was an incident when we took him out where a German Shepherd attacked him. Basically the only time he ever showed any aggression was out of fear. Dominance doesn't have much to do with it. Even so, you'll find it easier if you put the effort into showing him you're the leader.

Oh, and I know you said you don't like Cesar Milan's style. I don't know enough about that to know what I think, but I do my training based on a site (dogbreedinfo) which in turn is a huge supporter of his style, so I guess I'd agree with his training methods. I don't agree with hitting or anything though. But the woman's dogs (the owner of the site) are amazingly calm, submissive, well-behaved, happy, etc., and she did a week-by-week blog of training her dogs from when they were puppies, so I'd definitely check it out if I were you. Even if you don't agree with how it's done, it might just give you some ideas of your own?

At 8 weeks I don't think they can be aggressive. She is just learning her place in the world and what is acceptable. The nipping can be stopped by turning around and ignoring her as she is seeking attention and play. Giving her the opposite response will teach her that isn't acceptable. The same holds true for jumping up.

It's important to socialize her as much and as often as possible. Exposure to different breeds, ages and types of people will help her know how to act appropriately in those instances.

Hayley wrote:Lexi i would say is a dominant dog, but she takes this out in the form of aggression - she is not aggressive with dogs that are very calm and nonchalant only dogs that show any attention to her at all.

That sounds more like anxiety-based aggression - get your retaliation in first! She feels anxious with the attention so tells them off.

Caryll wrote:

Hayley wrote:Lexi i would say is a dominant dog, but she takes this out in the form of aggression - she is not aggressive with dogs that are very calm and nonchalant only dogs that show any attention to her at all.

That sounds more like anxiety-based aggression - get your retaliation in first! She feels anxious with the attention so tells them off.

yeah, probably. lol. its not really a big issue to me cause i rarely walk near other dogs, so as long as she is okay with livestock i dont need to worry. Had a horse sniffing her bum yesterday and she was fine lol

Hayley wrote: Had a horse sniffing her bum yesterday and she was fine lol

Heya, Our pup is one day younger than yours , Our pup nips scratches and jumps on the furniture alot but with a firm stop once or twice he will soon trot off - however just goes and does it to something else 10 mins later lol, but hes getting the idea after having him a week. Vinnie never barks i think ive heard him bark two times and they wern't even proper ones :/ So im quite lucky in that sense.. Vinnie also allows us to take things out of his mouth etc. I agree with what your saying that when they do come and nip at you it is definately playing, he often grabs our hands between his arms and bites them but only lightly - We still tell him to stop and ignore him as we dont want any sort of nipping/biting. Im sure your little girl will be fine with time just a little hyper over excited puppy who wants to play with his new family!! But nipping to the point of blood isnt good Vinnie has yet to make anyone bleed and hopefully wont lol.

GL keep me updated cos its interesting that they are exactly the same age

A pup is what u make it.

Encourage good behaviours and discourage unwanted behaviours.

My pup at 8 wks was a full on nightmare I even had second thoughts a few days after we got him, thinking , what the hell have we done !

But a cpl of weeks down the line it changes.

He's 19wks now and is a different dog ! He's calm, happy, and balanced.

Training really pays off.

Sorry I haven't got back yet. Had a bad headache last night!

Thanks for all your replies!

Just to point out that Saffy is now aporox 10 1/2 weeks and we have had her 3 weeks.

I personally do not think Saffy is or will be aggressive. She IS boisterous, this is very true. But I know in my heart it's play and being over friendly. I think the problem is, she just hasnt got/learned any manners. Even though I promise you I have been teaching her. She is a very tactile dog, when she nips it's not so much playing, it's in between licking! She jumps up to lick you but will nip too.

She is trainable, she can and does listen very well. But she is like I say very OTT and totally in your face. She loves people.

I always try to focus on the good stuff. She's incredibly sweet and loving when calm and her sit is 100% as well is her retrieve and her 'leave' is 80% there. If she is in a licking/nipping frenzy and I tell her to leave - she does. But will do it again a few mins later.

What concerned me too is her trying to dominate the cats. Or specially my tabby kitty. She will literally stand on and over her, especially while eating. She fixates on her and frequently chases her. She tries to pin her down with her body etc. But she won't do it to my other one. She won't go more than two foot near Ninja. Ninja has made it very clear what will happen. So yes she is a dominating puppy. And I was kidding myself, thinking it was puppy play behaviour.

I also do not believe that dominance equals aggression. I believe aggression is a result of fear. A submissive dog will also be aggressive if fearful. It just threw me a bit to read that about my dog. It kinda said she was a lost cause! That she will bite and can't live in normal society!

Ok so I'm rambling a bit! I'm a very practical person and I have taken everything you've said on board. To be totally honest all my dogs I've owned have been submissive through and through. I am in-experienced in dealing with dominant dogs. But I am a 'do-er', so apart from consistency and patience what else can I do to train Saffy some manners?

I make her wait for food. I consistently stop negative behaviour and praise good behaviour. I only allow her to do things like, get on the sofa when I say so. I won't let her go near visitors until she's calmed down.

What I'm asking is basically how can I ensure that my family are seen as the 'pack leaders' ?

Because Im not sure what I am doing is enough.

Sorry, sorry, sorry for the long post!! I really appreciate all your input!

Jackieb wrote:A pup is what u make it.

Encourage good behaviours and discourage unwanted behaviours.

My pup at 8 wks was a full on nightmare I even had second thoughts a few days after we got him, thinking , what the hell have we done !

But a cpl of weeks down the line it changes.

He's 19wks now and is a different dog ! He's calm, happy, and balanced.

Training really pays off.

Thanks! This is what I was hoping would happen. She would calm down eventually. But I really don't want to kid myself either and rely on that hope.

I know I sound silly but I have seen so many dogs around that quite frankly, I'm scared to go near myself and I don't want my dog to come across as that when I know she as sweet as they come! If just OTT. Lol

Believe it or not, you're doing exactly the right things already. You can get there quicker by breaking a dog's spirit, but I'm sure you don't want to do that! Dominant dogs, raised properly (the way you're already doing) usually turn out to be very confident, non-aggressive adults. They don't need to be aggressive, because they are supremely self-confident.

It's actually very nice to see a dominant dog totally ignore a yapping, snapping pain-in-the-butt dog just because he knows he's bigger, stronger & better.

This is the way Dempsey has turned out. If a dog pushes him too far, he'll snarl & pin it down, but as soon as the other dog submits or runs away, Dempsey leaves it alone. Even if they carry on, Dempsey's teeth rarely make contact with them. Dominance doesn't = aggression.

Rachb26 wrote:I know I sound silly but I have seen so many dogs around that quite frankly, I'm scared to go near myself

A fully submissive dog will rarely become aggressive, but a fearful submissive is likely to. Most (not all) aggression is based on fear and lack of self confidence.

Caryll wrote:Believe it or not, you're doing exactly the right things already. You can get there quicker by breaking a dog's spirit, but I'm sure you don't want to do that! Dominant dogs, raised properly (the way you're already doing) usually turn out to be very confident, non-aggressive adults. They don't need to be aggressive, because they are supremely self-confident.

It's actually very nice to see a dominant dog totally ignore a yapping, snapping pain-in-the-butt dog just because he knows he's bigger, stronger & better.

This is the way Dempsey has turned out. If a dog pushes him too far, he'll snarl & pin it down, but as soon as the other dog submits or runs away, Dempsey leaves it alone. Even if they carry on, Dempsey's teeth rarely make contact with them. Dominance doesn't = aggression.

Most definitely I do not want to 'break' her spirit in anyway. Me and Saffy have got plans! Mostly agility and hill walking but we have got plans!

What you said has just been a huge relief! I never looked at it from that angle. I mentioned Caesar Milan earlier and because he's always talking about dominance, you automatically have visions of pinning down your dog etc.

Yes, you are right. Saffy is very confident, on the whole she's not fearful of anything. But she also looks to me for guidance. An example is: there were some strange noises coming from next door (decorating) and she got slightly nervous, doing that puppy prance they do. She looked at me. So I just told her to sit and together we sat and listened. I didn't say anything, I didn't acknowlede her nervousness. If she tried to get away from the noise, i just commanded her to sit. After a few mins she realised it was nothing and relaxed. So I let her go and she hasn't battered an eye lid since. This is the kind of thing I've been doing with her so she is desensitised to unusual things. I want her to be able to cope with the big, wide world lol.

Thank you Caryll (once again!)

Can I just ask you, was Dempsey also boitourous as a puppy? And a bit OTT?

Thanks

Rachb26 wrote:Can I just ask you, was Dempsey also boitourous as a puppy? And a bit OTT?

Thanks

He was hell on earth. Seriously. It took a lot of patience and determination to get him where he is today, but he started to dramatically improve from about 18 months.

Caryll wrote:

Rachb26 wrote:Can I just ask you, was Dempsey also boitourous as a puppy? And a bit OTT?

Thanks

He was hell on earth. Seriously. It took a lot of patience and determination to get him where he is today, but he started to dramatically improve from about 18 months.

18 months! I had better stock on hair dye then! I'm already going grey

All I can say is thanks My 'concerns' have dwindled consideringly. It's good to hear from people who have experience in the matter. Dempsey is a credit to you.

I think I'm gonna stop 'googling' stuff and just go with my common sense! You wouldn't believe half the scare-mongering stuff that is on the net. Normally I don't paid heed, but I have to say this caught me off kilter

You won't have to wait as long as me! Staffords are a lot brighter than EBTs, and they tend to mature a bit earlier as well!

Rachb26 wrote:
What concerned me too is her trying to dominate the cats. Or specially my tabby kitty. She will literally stand on and over her, especially while eating. She fixates on her and frequently chases her. She tries to pin her down with her body etc. But she won't do it to my other one. She won't go more than two foot near Ninja. Ninja has made it very clear what will happen. So yes she is a dominating puppy. And I was kidding myself, thinking it was puppy play behaviour.

Dont worry too much about the cat thing. Tyson did the same and although it did take time, they now co-exist happily even sleeping together but he does sneak in a dominance stance over one of them now and then. He never hurts them though.

Caryll wrote:Believe it or not, you're doing exactly the right things already. You can get there quicker by breaking a dog's spirit, but I'm sure you don't want to do that! Dominant dogs, raised properly (the way you're already doing) usually turn out to be very confident, non-aggressive adults. They don't need to be aggressive, because they are supremely self-confident.

It's actually very nice to see a dominant dog totally ignore a yapping, snapping pain-in-the-butt dog just because he knows he's bigger, stronger & better.

Agree with this 110% every dominent dog I have met has been non agressive for the above reason.

It definitely sounds like you're doing everything right. Even if you have a naturally dominant puppy, the fact that you're willing to be consistent and not let her get away with things she's not allowed to do means that she'll learn her place, even if it takes more patience than you're used to. I feel like Loki is quite similar in that he's boisterous and when he's playful and hyperactive he suddenly goes deaf but he still has his very good points. I honestly think the main thing is that they're puppies so they just like to push their boundaries often, like kids do.

Yeah totally, Saffys overall personality is very good. Her good points deffo outweigh the annoying haha!

I think what makes it seem a bit worse, is her teeth are incredibly sharp. I think even more than normal puppy standards. Her brothers and sister have noticeably 'blunter' teeth and the only difference between them is that Saffy is on raw and eats bones. I think this is why she draws blood.

Anyway, I'm starting to take her for walks now. I think it will help alot. She had her second jab yesterday, so its too early, but she literally bounces off the Walls now!

Fingers crossed! Lol

Walks should indeed help with energy levels and well as bonding. Remember to take some treats or a squeaky toy to get her attention when you need to.

Well so far it seems to be having the opposite effect! Haha! She seems/is more hyper if anything!

I think she will settle down in a few days. Probably just the excitement of it all