New UK rules ?

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New UK rules ?

Post by Nifty staffy on Thu Oct 04 2018, 11:59

They were talking about new UK legislation on the TV here this morning.
Puppies and kittens not to be sold under 8 weeks of age = good
And plans to prevent them being sold in petshops = not so bad

But future plans are that puppies and kitten only sold by breeders after they reach 6 months old ?
What about the socialising issues of these youngsters ?

Thought ?


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Re: New UK rules ?

Post by LizP on Thu Oct 04 2018, 14:08

My understanding is that the proposed rules are only for non-licensed breeders, and that licensed breeders will be able to sell pups as of 8 weeks old. The targets are puppy farms, importers, online sales, pet shops, back yard breeders, etc.

I think much of it is good but there are worries in my mind, things like what will happen to the results of accidental breeding when the owner is unable to care for a large batch of unwanted, demanding young animals. And who will check that licensed breeders are actually good and not just some scamster who gives you what appears to be the right paperwork but isn't? Where there is money to be made, they will find a way around, sadly.

But if it discourages the vast number of people who pop out a litter because they want to cover some costs, because puppies are sweet, because they can't be bothered to take responsibility for their bitch, then at least there will be that. And if it makes it more difficult for someone to buy the latest designer dog that they will get bored with after the first wee on the carpet, then that's good too. I don't, sadly, see it will be a full solution to a spiralling problem though.


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Re: New UK rules ?

Post by gillybrent on Thu Oct 04 2018, 17:11

I fully support pups not being sold until 8 weeks, and no 3rd party sales (pet shops
etc).

Nifty staffy wrote:
But future plans are that puppies and kitten only sold by breeders after they reach 6 months old ?

Where did you see that? I've searched the new laws & I can't find anything to support that.

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Re: New UK rules ?

Post by Nifty staffy on Thu Oct 04 2018, 19:21

It may have been a translation/language problem ?
But they said the next step would be the 6 months marker to stop people selling the “oh so cute whilst it’s little” to future owners who will get bored once it’s grown up a little


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Re: New UK rules ?

Post by gillybrent on Thu Oct 04 2018, 19:52

Won't happen. It flies in the face of every dog welfare law.

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Re: New UK rules ?

Post by joshpills on Sat Oct 06 2018, 11:15

i don't really see how this new legislation helps. in my experience, fantastic breeders that breed for the improvement of the breed only do breedings every now and again. maybe one a year at MOST. i would imagine these breeders wont bother getting a licence and breeding any more, whereas the puppy farmers that always have litters available and breed all the time will get a licence to carry on breeding. to me it means only puppy farmers will continue breeding.

i agree with the 8 weeks thing, but definitely dont agree with not selling pups till 6 months old.

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Re: New UK rules ?

Post by gillybrent on Sat Oct 06 2018, 16:52

I think the 6 month thing was put across by PETA. They want to kill off pet owning, and certainly Stafford owning - and let's face it, if nobody could hand over pups under 6 months, nobody would breed!

The things Iike about the laws are
a) Pups not sold under 8 weeks
b) Buyers must see pups with the mother
c) No third party/online sales - goodbye Gumtree!

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Re: New UK rules ?

Post by LizP on Sat Oct 06 2018, 18:34

If a breeder is put off simply by the need to get a license that is aimed at protecting dogs, then all I can say is that they maybe need to rethink their priorities. I hope that the point of the license is that it can be refused and it can also be revoked, so dodgy breeders may indeed apply but that doesn't necessarily mean they will get one/carry on.

From my end of the 'market' (i.e. rescue), a proper system that restricts online sales, gets rid of pups being sold in pet shops and restricts back yard breeders, and concentrates the minds of buyers has to be a good thing. If you see things through the blinkers of KC breeders, then it may of course add red tape but there is much, more more to the problems of the dog population and quite honestly if some good breeders are indeed put off, as long as the benefits outweigh them then I can't see it as being a bad thing.

And at least someone is trying to do something.


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Re: New UK rules ?

Post by Nifty staffy on Sat Oct 06 2018, 20:45

joshpills wrote:in my experience, fantastic breeders that breed for the improvement of the breed only do breedings every now and again. maybe one a year at MOST. i would imagine these breeders wont bother getting a licence and breeding any more

Really ? I would doubt very much that these fantastic breeders would not take the financial side into consideration. I mean to breed THE best example of a breed means you’d ask more money for it because it’s rare and breeding studied etc. Also the risk to their champion bitch and the cost of breeding and keeping the adult dogs in itself, they certainly don’t and wouldn’t do it for free.
Of course these breeders would get a license but it would probably just hike their prices a little more.
Unless these are non-professional breeders and that’s a whole other story.

Often “top breeders” breed a little less as it prevents them spending time on the show grounds and/or they need to delegate the care of pups and premium bitch to others. With her value alone, they’re reluctant to do so.


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Re: New UK rules ?

Post by gillybrent on Sun Oct 07 2018, 09:05

Nifty staffy wrote:

Really ? I would doubt very much that these fantastic breeders would not take the financial side into consideration. I mean to breed THE best example of a breed means you’d ask more money for it because it’s rare and breeding studied etc.

You can't 'know' whether you're breeding the BEST example of a breed until it's a few months old. You certainly don't know what a litter will turn out like.

I do know several 'top' breeders. None of them breed for money. Yes, they see their pups, but the homes they go to are heavily vetted beforehand & they have long waiting lists. One recently had a bitch produce only 2 puppies & the bitch had difficulties as one pup was big. She had to have emergency surgery, costing almost £1000, but the pups are going for the usual fee - there was no profit in that!

Like Liz, I think anything that makes people think twice about breeding is good - and banning 3rd party sales is something many people have wanted for a long time.

As for the top breeders automatically getting a licence, many already have one. But the council, generally, won't know the first thing about breeding pedigree dogs, so they're unlikely to know who the 'top' breeders are, and they'll be treated the same as anyone else.

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Re: New UK rules ?

Post by LizP on Sun Oct 07 2018, 20:05

I do think there is a place for different levels of breeding, if you like. Not everyone wants a show dog, not everyone wants The Best as far as show standards are concerned. For many of us, having a happy, healthy dog is all that really matters.

I'll confess that I have a bit of a dilemma. I love mongrels as much as I love pedigree dogs. In some breeds, I hate what breeders have created. But, I equally recognise that without pedigree breeders we would not have the staffies we know and love. So much as I agree with restricting breeding to those who have obtained a license, which has hopefully been issued with due care and attention, I would equally be sad to see breeding solely in the hands of those who promote flat faced pugs, etc. And I would be sad to see the demise of the mutt.

It's a hard one, but something has to be done to curb the throw away society desire for the latest fashion dog, ready to pick up now, and ready to dump tomorrow.



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Re: New UK rules ?

Post by gillybrent on Mon Oct 08 2018, 08:06

You'll never see the demise of the Mutt. There will always be 'accidents' and there will always be those who want their bitch 'to have the chance of being a mum' before being neutered.

If the law can go some way to reducing the indiscriminate breeding (purely for profit) I'm all for it. My big concern is the 'policing' of the law. Will councils bother? Will people actually be prosecuted for breaking the law? We shall see.

At least the problem has been officially recognised & pet shops won't be selling litters in their shops & gumtree will have fewer 'free to good home' ads.

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Re: New UK rules ?

Post by Nifty staffy on Mon Oct 08 2018, 19:06

But what if part of the solution could be to work on these irresponsible owners too ? I mean if there was no demand for dogs (or mutts) then the breeding would have to reduce too.

Better checks on dogs’ paperwork (chip, etc) and fines if this isn’t up to date. Dogs falling in the 2nd category dangerous dogs act here require owners to follow a day’s training in order to have the “permit” to own one of these dogs. The local town hall must be informed if you own this type of dog.

In Belgium, all cats must be neutered/spayed and chipped before rehoming (to try to counter massive overpopulation).
Switzerland required certain herd/group animals to be kept at least 2 of the same species together ...

As always, the biggest problem of all will not be what they decide but how they intend on enforcing it.


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Re: New UK rules ?

Post by gillybrent on Mon Oct 08 2018, 19:38

Nifty staffy wrote:
Switzerland required certain herd/group animals to be kept at least 2 of the same species together ...

I honestly don't see the point of that.

Nifty staffy wrote:

As always, the biggest problem of all will not be what they decide but how they intend on enforcing it.

Absolutely - but that's my main concern.

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Re: New UK rules ?

Post by Nifty staffy on Mon Oct 08 2018, 21:09

gillybrent wrote:
Nifty staffy wrote:
Switzerland required certain herd/group animals to be kept at least 2 of the same species together ...

I honestly don't see the point of that.


It’s supposed to be in the name of animal welfare.
TBH, one guinea pig or 2 doesn’t make much difference in terms of space or work, until they make noises I suppose.

“Dog owners will need to pay for and take a class. The first section of the class focuses on dogs' needs and wishes, according to The Times of London. The second section explains how owners should walk their dogs and deal with different behavioral situations.”

“Authorities promise they won't be going door to door to check up on pet owners. They expect public opinion and mandatory training classes to do most of the work for them.”


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Re: New UK rules ?

Post by gillybrent on Mon Oct 08 2018, 22:43

Nifty staffy wrote:
“Dog owners will need to pay for and take a class. The first section of the class focuses on dogs' needs and wishes, according to The Times of London. The second section explains how owners should walk their dogs and deal with different behavioral situations.”

“Authorities promise they won't be going door to door to check up on pet owners. They expect public opinion and mandatory training classes to do most of the work for them.”

Where does that come from?

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