Breeding banned dogs vs not doing homework before acquisition

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Mad Breeding banned dogs vs not doing homework before acquisition

Post by Nifty staffy on Sat Oct 21 2017, 22:37

Met one of my friends from horsey circles at canine school today.
Her daughter has just acquired a pup and was attending puppy school.
The pup is a cross between an american staffordshire terrier and a bull terrier.

This clearly falls into the 1st category dangerous dogs act, labelled as a combat dog.
The acquisition, donation or sale and importation of these dogs is illegal in this country.
Future owners must also obtain aptitude diploma (1 day training) and then loads of other obligations ...

Of course, my friend now knows that this is a category 1 but does not appear to know implications nor all obligations.
Clearly daughter didn't do her homework as pedigree Am Staff is already category 2 and without papers is category 1. She has not yet obtained her aptitude diploma either.
Hers will clearly be considered as a pitbull Sad

Whoever she got puppy from is clearly untrustworthy and her ignorance will get her into trouble.
All that because the want of puppies from the bitch was greater than thinking about the condemned future of the pups angry
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Mad Re: Breeding banned dogs vs not doing homework before acquisition

Post by -Ian- on Mon Oct 23 2017, 21:03

It's such a shame that people don't do their homework before buying a dog that clearly has restrictions placed upon it, it would save a lot of future heartache I would imagine Sad


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Mad Re: Breeding banned dogs vs not doing homework before acquisition

Post by LizP on Tue Oct 24 2017, 18:18

For Category 1 does it not depend on what he looks like when he grows up? If you end up with a dog that looks more like a bull terrier and doesn't look like an Amstaff then surely it doesn't meet Category 1?

But I agree it's a rash thing to do. It's always in the back of my mind that someone could possibly decide Chaos looks like an Amstaff (I don't think he does but I'm assuming like here it depends on how the person judging feels that day), but if the worst ever did happen we'd just be told to remove him. Buying an iffy dog while you're living there is a different matter though.



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Mad Re: Breeding banned dogs vs not doing homework before acquisition

Post by Nifty staffy on Tue Oct 24 2017, 19:37

Unfortunately for her, it looks very much like an Am Staff which is supposed to be muzzled in public places anyway so will attract attention. If paperwork is requested and she can’t prove it is pure bred (which it isn’t), it's category 1 Sad

Category 2 includes crosses that resemble rottweilers, so yeah, looks will matter much too.

As you’re “foreign”, you’d definitely have less hassles than residents.


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Mad Re: Breeding banned dogs vs not doing homework before acquisition

Post by LizP on Wed Oct 25 2017, 08:10

So here's a question for you (sorry to take this thread off on a tangent)... would we be stupid to buy a house in France, for the time being only to visit 3 or 4 times a year. We go nowhere but quiet walks when we're there, and the vet, but if there's a real risk of getting kicked out it would be a shame to end up with a house you can't visit.

I personally don't see Chaos as looking Amstaff. I think he's too big - he's about 21 inches, which is above Amstaff standard, but it all depends on what measures they use there and when you Google Amstaff images there's such a range of body shapes! Have you any idea?


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Mad Re: Breeding banned dogs vs not doing homework before acquisition

Post by LizP on Thu Oct 26 2017, 07:56

I've found what we need here

http://france-amstaff.fr/accueil/legislation/

He doesn't meet the measurements, he's too tall, his muzzle/skull ratio isn't right (his muzzle is much shorter) and the chest/weight ratio is way out, his chest is 76cm while he weighs only 25kg.

I do wonder who wrote this stuff - a dog measuring up to 50cm weighing 40kg?


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Mad Re: Breeding banned dogs vs not doing homework before acquisition

Post by Nifty staffy on Thu Oct 26 2017, 18:24

I’m no expert but here are my thoughts on your question.

Firstly, you need to know that there is alot of discrepancy on the interpretation of the law itself.
When they stipulate that “dogs of the breed Staffordshire Bull Terrier are not concerned by the dangerous dogs act”, it us unclear if it only refers to KC registered dogs or all that have Staffy origins.

Then you need to look at definition of category 1 dogs - attack dogs.
These are dogs that are not registered with a pedigree book recognized by the ministry in charge of agriculture (the book of French origins or LOF). Their morphological characteristics can be likened to the following breeds:
Staffordshire terrier or American Staffordshire terrier (so-called pitbulls);
Mastiff (so-called boerbull dogs);
or Tosa.

So it is very subjective as to what looks like and what doesn’t.

Then consider where you can and can’t go.
Access to public transport, public places and buildings open to the public (except public roads) PROHIBITED.
In all other places not prohibited, these dogs must absolutely be muzzled and held on a lead by a person of age.

Having said that, if you were buying in Marseille town center and had the intention of taking the bus to wander along the old port, I’d call you suicidal.
However in a rural place where you stay curteous to neighbours and don’t attract attention to yourself, the risk would be minimal.
You are also just visiting your holiday home  x times per year and you probably also have a strong foreign accent. Until now in the same area, have you had the slightest hint of trouble ?

These laws exist because of the wrong people doing the wrong thing and ultimately putting someone else in danger with the dog as a weapon. A well behaved dog under control of a friendly owner won’t be seen as a danger.
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Mad Re: Breeding banned dogs vs not doing homework before acquisition

Post by LizP on Thu Oct 26 2017, 20:49

Thanks!

I don't know if you looked at that link but it gives the wording of the law and our feeling at the moment - unless you think otherwise - is that we should be able to rely on it - surely they can't just make it up as they go along? Interpret yes, but if a dog doesn't fit the discription then surely it doesn't? Although I know a dog doesn't have to tick every box there should be at least 'une large ressemblance' to the characteristics given. Chaos isn't a standard staffie, he's probably an American bulldog x staffie. He's very heavy set in the chest and shoulders, and to someone who's used to bull breeds the difference is clear. I know it's probably no use trying to argue with the authorities if they decide against you but I would be stunned if they could apply that description to him. And he definitely doesn't look like a mastiff or a tosa. He's just a big mixed lump!

We've been there 4 times now and no one has said a thing. The vets haven't batted an eyelid and we've seen 3 different people at the same practice. The only time we meet anyone is going to the vets, otherwise we're in the house/garden or on quiet walks. He stays on his long line as there are oodles of things to chase and we don't want him to get any attention.

It sounds like I'm trying to argue with you - I'm not, honest! I've spent hours looking at this, though, because it was really worrying me and now I've read the law I just can't see how they could apply it to him.

And no, not Marseille. Seine Maritime, on the outskirts of a little town of under 2,000.

I really do appreciate your input, please do say if you think we're misunderstanding it all.


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Mad Re: Breeding banned dogs vs not doing homework before acquisition

Post by Nifty staffy on Thu Oct 26 2017, 22:10

I’ve just had a quick looksie at the link.
From what I’ve seen in your avatar, I was thinking that Chaos looked like a very heavy set staffy type (in the nicest possible way Smile  ) and definitely not like an Amstaff or pitbull. Plus if he’s nowhere near the “dimensions” they’re quoting, it does confirm that your risk is practically zero.

The link does mention that you can have a vet document stating he’s nowhere near the category 1 descriptions and if they don’t agree, they’ll take you to a french vet for another opinion.

All in all, I don’t see how you can be at risk, other than meeting an expert who will ask how are your bulldog, whippet and great dane. Rolling Eyes Laughing
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Mad Re: Breeding banned dogs vs not doing homework before acquisition

Post by lexii on Thu Oct 26 2017, 23:11

Only get in trouble if caught...i know may pits that never get "caught" and never have a reason to. Esp in the countryside.
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Mad Re: Breeding banned dogs vs not doing homework before acquisition

Post by Nifty staffy on Fri Oct 27 2017, 05:26

As Lexi says “never has a reason to”

I find alot is based on image hence the thing about Marseille which is full of gangsters.
And my short experience here tells me that most people don’t know what a staffy is anyway so they’re definitely more positively interested than wary critical, if you see what I mean Smile


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Mad Re: Breeding banned dogs vs not doing homework before acquisition

Post by LizP on Fri Oct 27 2017, 08:00

Thank you! I'd missed the vet certificate bit, and it even looks like we could get our vet to do it. He is indeed as you say a 'very heavy set staffie type', much politer than my 'big lump'!

The only comments we've had were from a group of lads George ran into while I was shopping en route last time, and their reaction was 'oh un staff! mon reve!'.

I know what you mean about only being in trouble when you're caught, Lexi. I do worry (maybe too much sometimes) about my dogs and it's maybe made worse by seeing dogs at Danaher that have to be pts because we're legally not allowed to rehome them.

These laws are all bonkers. The French definition of a pitbull and the UK one are so completely different, neither are dangerous except if made so, and they don't make any difference at the end of the day.



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